Condor Ferries Future Fleet

[BenMyChree]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

[khaines]

BF should do a Barfleur and take back NEX and rename her back as so.

[northsaul]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

An interesting thought.  However it assumes that Condor, through their ownership partners have any money to invest.  Depending on who you listen to and the various rumours that have been circulating for some time now, that might not be very much.

With DFDS and Stena already announcing that they wish to be considered for the tender, I would have thought that the chances of Condor getting any investment/re-financing ahead of them securing the tender is marginal at best.

[Seashore]

BF should do a Barfleur and take back NEX and rename her back as so.

Barfleur has a use; essentially she came back to replace Corentin for freight and Normandie Express for passengers. I would think with their own economic woes, Brittany Ferries feel relieved to be shot of NEx. They still have access to Lib at busy holiday weekends when it matters, what is the need for a high speed service all week and for the season?
 

[BenMyChree]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

An interesting thought.  However it assumes that Condor, through their ownership partners have any money to invest.  Depending on who you listen to and the various rumours that have been circulating for some time now, that might not be very much.

With DFDS and Stena already announcing that they wish to be considered for the tender, I would have thought that the chances of Condor getting any investment/re-financing ahead of them securing the tender is marginal at best.

That is also an interesting thought. Has it been officially announced by Stena and DFDS? Condors, rumoured, Financial Issues could put a Manxman Build off limits. However, Stena RORO front the costs and risks of an E-Flexer and then long term Charter to the Operator. InCat can also offer a similar arrangement, I believe. 

Stena could get themselves an E-Flexer and Trasfer Vinga. Would the wider Stena Sphere be open to Condor Operating the CI Flexer in return for Charter Income. With Stena not having the inconvenience of actually Operating to the CI? As for DFDS, they could transfer Hull 068 herself from FRS and get an E-Flexer or two for the CI. DFDS are also open to acquiring Operators, as we seen with FRS. Could they purchase Shares in Condor? 

Whatever happens. I imagine any new Tender Process will result in a new Vessel. Like the Clipper in 1998 and the Liberation in 2015. 

[hhvferry]

The Ben-my-Chree would be a very useful ship for rival operators to get their hands on if they were serious about making a bid.

[BenMyChree]

The Ben-my-Chree would be a very useful ship for rival operators to get their hands on if they were serious about making a bid.

She certainly would. However, she isn't available for Sale. Only Charter. And only during the Summer Months. 

[hhvferry]

The Ben-my-Chree would be a very useful ship for rival operators to get their hands on if they were serious about making a bid.

She certainly would. However, she isn't available for Sale. Only Charter. And only during the Summer Months. 

Has that been finally determined now? The Steam Packet/govt. must be strong willed to resist the amount of money they could cash the ship in for.

[BenMyChree]

The Ben-my-Chree would be a very useful ship for rival operators to get their hands on if they were serious about making a bid.

She certainly would. However, she isn't available for Sale. Only Charter. And only during the Summer Months. 

Has that been finally determined now? The Steam Packet/govt. must be strong willed to resist the amount of money they could cash the ship in for.

It's in the Sea Services Agreement that the Ben-My-Chree has to be retained as Fleet Back-Up Vessel. She will also see use during the TT and perhaps during the Winter Program, similar to how the Lady Of Mann was used. 

The IOMSP dont wish to sell her. That's media nonsense. They would like to ammend the SSA so she is not the named Standby Vessel. This would allow her to be Chartered out long term, with no recall clause. Widening her appeal. Arrow would still have a recall clause should the IOMSP need to call her back into Service. 

[hhvferry]

I'm sure they are happy to keep her but the money they could get can't be ignored (and has certainly turned heads in management from what I hear). If they can find a way to charter her out then that would be ideal.

[BenMyChree]

I'm sure they are happy to keep her but the money they could get can't be ignored (and has certainly turned heads in management from what I hear). If they can find a way to charter her out then that would be ideal.

IoMSP know how much revenue she could potentially generate. This revenue would be better in Charter Fees. Not only do the IOMSP benefit financially, but they still have a useable asset. To grow their Market and add resilience. 

Perhaps we are getting off topic here though, and could benefit from an IOMSP Future Fleet Thread. 

[twbc99]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

Having traveled on the voyager last year I would say if anything you might want to go bigger or a similar size. The car deck looked almost full and lounges were quite busy but not overly so.

[BenMyChree]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

Having traveled on the voyager last year I would say if anything you might want to go bigger or a similar size. The car deck looked almost full and lounges were quite busy but not overly so.

Interesting. Is that including Mezzanines, or were these not in use?

Having looked at Hull 057 vs 068. Voyager can Accommodate 267 Cars, with all Mezzanines in use. 068 can Accommodate 151. If 057 really is at Capacity, then perhaps she is what the Routes need? Can anyone else confirm 057 Capacity vs Demand?

[nickgsy]

From a local Guernsey  perspective...It's very premature to suggest Stena Line or DFDS will definitely be submitting a tender for CI ferry operations. And as for Ben my Chree I'm not sure we really want her in the Channel Islands. Older than Clipper and significantly poorer onboard passenger fit out and accommodation plus only half the passenger cabin berths Clipper has. I bet Condor will stay. I hope so.

[BenMyChree]

From a local Guernsey  perspective...It's very premature to suggest Stena Line or DFDS will definitely be submitting a tender for CI ferry operations. And as for Ben my Chree I'm not sure we really want her in the Channel Islands. Older than Clipper and significantly poorer onboard passenger fit out and accommodation plus only half the passenger cabin berths Clipper has. I bet Condor will stay. I hope so.

Ben-My-Chree is one year Older, though she is in excellent Condition. She is certainly not a poorer On Board Fit Out. She is equipped for a shorter route. Condor certainly wanted her. At one point begging the IOMSP to Sell Her. 

It's in Condors hands, I would argue. They have the Infrastructure. They have the knowledge. But the States could be seduced by a Big Industry Name. 

[nickgsy]

From a local Guernsey  perspective...It's very premature to suggest Stena Line or DFDS will definitely be submitting a tender for CI ferry operations. And as for Ben my Chree I'm not sure we really want her in the Channel Islands. Older than Clipper and significantly poorer onboard passenger fit out and accommodation plus only half the passenger cabin berths Clipper has. I bet Condor will stay. I hope so.

Ben-My-Chree is one year Older, though she is in excellent Condition. She is certainly not a poorer On Board Fit Out. She is equipped for a shorter route. Condor certainly wanted her. At one point begging the IOMSP to Sell Her. 

It's in Condors hands, I would argue. They have the Infrastructure. They have the knowledge. But the States could be seduced by a Big Industry Name. 

Ben my Chree is way inferior. I've been on both. Ben's lounge bar is nothing like the ambience on Clipper with its large floor to ceiling windows snd fit out. Ben does not have nearly enough cabins. In fact no way enough. And ask me this why would we replace 25 year old Clipper with a vessel that is one year older? Makes no sense at all.

[BenMyChree]

From a local Guernsey  perspective...It's very premature to suggest Stena Line or DFDS will definitely be submitting a tender for CI ferry operations. And as for Ben my Chree I'm not sure we really want her in the Channel Islands. Older than Clipper and significantly poorer onboard passenger fit out and accommodation plus only half the passenger cabin berths Clipper has. I bet Condor will stay. I hope so.

Ben-My-Chree is one year Older, though she is in excellent Condition. She is certainly not a poorer On Board Fit Out. She is equipped for a shorter route. Condor certainly wanted her. At one point begging the IOMSP to Sell Her. 

It's in Condors hands, I would argue. They have the Infrastructure. They have the knowledge. But the States could be seduced by a Big Industry Name. 

Ben my Chree is way inferior. I've been on both. Ben's lounge bar is nothing like the ambience on Clipper with its large floor to ceiling windows snd fit out. Ben does not have nearly enough cabins. In fact no way enough. And ask me this why would we replace 25 year old Clipper with a vessel that is one year older? Makes no sense at all.

Nobody said you should replace her. Condor wanted the Ben to supplement Clipper, before Straitsman came on the Market. 

But I stress, she is in my opinion superior. She has had continuous Investment, New Carpeting, Seat Covers, Ceilings, Lighting etc. Clipper is effectively as she was when she left Van der Giessen in 1999. 

Again, the Ben-My-Chree has Sufficient Cabins for the Route she was designed for. Commodore Clipper has no free Seating, apart from the Restaurant area. Ben-My-Chree offers the Niarbyl Lounge, with Panoramic Windows. This space could be converted to Cabins if she ever required more. 

Both Vessels demonstrate the flexibility of the Van der Giessen Design. Capable of Covering Routes ranging from 3 Hours 45 Mins to 12 Hours. 

[nickgsy]

 Clipper is effectively as she was when she left Van der Giessen in 1999. 

Clipper is not effectively as she was built in 1999 so wrong:.
1. New reclining seats in forward Horizon lounge
2. New carpets in Brasserie.
3. Enlarged duty free shop and repositioned reception desk by pursers office.
4. New colour scheme in Casquets bar.
5. Total replacement of seats in club class. As built was bucket chairs replaced with reclining seats.
7. New table service a la carte  restaurant in Brasserie area.
8. Newly installed showers for use by reclining seat passengers.
9.  New upgraded premium cabins.
10. Installation of new flat screen tvs everywhere 
11. New pictures on walls.

As built Ben was a disgrace and badly needed upgrade in 2004.

Also as I said before it doesn't matter if Ben had cabin capacity suitable for IOM market. It's not suitable for our market.

I'd also add Condor Islander is way better than Ben too.

Manxman btw looks excellent..something you should have had yeas ago. And way better than what we have here in the Channel Islands.
 

[BenMyChree]

 

Clipper is not effectively as she was built in 1999 so wrong:.
1. New reclining seats in forward Horizon lounge
2. New carpets in Brasserie.
3. Enlarged duty free shop and repositioned reception desk by pursers office.
4. New colour scheme in Casquets bar.
5. Total replacement of seats in club class. As built was bucket chairs replaced with reclining seats.
7. New table service a la carte  restaurant in Brasserie area.
8. Newly installed showers for use by reclining seat passengers.
9.  New upgraded premium cabins.
10. Installation of new flat screen tvs everywhere 
11. New pictures on walls.

As built Ben was a disgrace and badly needed upgrade in 2004.

Also as I said before it doesn't matter if Ben had cabin capacity suitable for IOM market. It's not suitable for our market.

I'd also add Condor Islander is way better than Ben too.

Manxman btw looks excellent..something you should have had yeas ago. And way better than what we have here in the Channel Islands.

It does matter. She's entirely suitable for the Market she was designed for. I don't think she was a 'disgrace'. She was Designed to Operate alongside SeaCats. Commodore Clipper always felt more 'run down' and less maintained than the Ben. 

I certainly don't think you can claim the Ben was a disgrace and then claim Islander, who is largely the same as the Ben was 'as built' is superior to her! 

[twbc99]

I thought it would be interesting to have a look at Condor Ferries Future Fleet. 

If we assume Commodore Clipper and Condor Voyager will be the next to be replaced. Condor could either Order a Manxman Sister, as they did with their Ben-My-Chree Sister, or a Stena E-Flexer. Either a shortened E-Flexer or Shortened E-Flexer 300/500. This would then give them the Clipper Replacement and Condor Islander on the main Portsmouth-Guernsey-Jersey Service. Commodore Goodwill would likely be sold, if not already. Could they then retain Clipper as Back-Up? It would all depend on her condition. 

As for the Voyager Replacement. An InCat 85 Metre, similar to Hull 068, would probably be a good addition for Condor. Is Voyager perhaps too large for the St Malo-Jersey-Guernsey Services? An 85 Metre may be more suited and would be a more natural successor to the 86 Metre InCats. 

It's interesting to speculate how Condor will modernise their Fleet. The States of both Islands want to Tender their Ferry Services. So Fleet Incestment may be necessary if Condor are to retain their position. 

Having traveled on the voyager last year I would say if anything you might want to go bigger or a similar size. The car deck looked almost full and lounges were quite busy but not overly so.

Interesting. Is that including Mezzanines, or were these not in use?

Having looked at Hull 057 vs 068. Voyager can Accommodate 267 Cars, with all Mezzanines in use. 068 can Accommodate 151. If 057 really is at Capacity, then perhaps she is what the Routes need? Can anyone else confirm 057 Capacity vs Demand?

Yes it seems they were being used more as a 'U' so load one side and then unload on the other on arrival. The middle had the larger vehicles reversing on last. I am going off a couple of trips last summer through as a foot passenger.

[nickgsy]

 

I certainly don't think you can claim the Ben was a disgrace and then claim Islander, who is largely the same as the Ben was 'as built' is superior to her! 

As built in 1998 Ben was a disgrace.

I went on the Ben in Aug 1999 and couldn't believe how bad she was compared to the King Orry. The only outdoor areas on her then were on deck 8 standing on some exterior steps going down to nowhere outside on deck 7. What was Sea Containers thinking of then? No reclining seats anywhere and cafe / bar / lounge all dumped together in one room! There were loads of complaints. Also Lady of Mann ran alongside her 3 times a week on the summer Heysham run in 1999 as Ben's capacity as built was totally inadequate. Clipper as built was a major step up in design and space.
 

[BenMyChree]

 

I certainly don't think you can claim the Ben was a disgrace and then claim Islander, who is largely the same as the Ben was 'as built' is superior to her! 

As built in 1998 Ben was a disgrace.

I went on the Ben in Aug 1999 and couldn't believe how bad she was compared to the King Orry. The only outdoor areas on her then were on deck 8 standing on some exterior steps going down to nowhere outside on deck 7. What was Sea Containers thinking of then? No reclining seats anywhere and cafe / bar / lounge all dumped together in one room! There were loads of complaints. Also Lady of Mann ran alongside her 3 times a week on the summer Heysham run in 1999 as Ben's capacity as built was totally inadequate. Clipper as built was a major step up in design and space.

She really wasn't. As I said, she was never intended to replace King Orry on her own. You have to consider, at this time, IOMSP were part of the SeaCo Group, who wanted SeaCats to carry the vast majority of Passenger Traffic. 

She Offered En-Suite Cabins for the Overnight Sailings, and Outside Deck Space on Deck 7 at the Stern. 

I don't doubt Clipper was a step up for the Channel Islands. But what Condor Offered in 1999 would not have been a step up from what the Steam Packet Offered on the Sea Routes to Mann in 1999. 

[nickgsy]

I certainly don't think you can claim the Ben was a disgrace and then claim Islander, who is largely the same as the Ben was 

I think your memory on what outside deck space was available at the stern on deck 7 on Ben my Chree as built was not what you think! The space outdoors was nearly non existent! Literally it was space  standing on the steps. Period. No real space at all. Tiny. It was so tiny it makes what outdoor deck space you have now on Manxman look like a Palace!

As for Clipper she was most definitely a step up on Havelet. All cabins now with ensuite, a lift, club class and fully stabilised with a modern decor. Plus a decent sized sky lounge bar with panoramic views.

I don't understand why you think what Sea Containers designed with Ben was anyway OK, even as a supplement to the fast ferries! She was often full to capacity, with passengers often having limited seating options. No wonder she then needed a major rebuild in 2004. And even then the Ben was never the most luxurious ferry. Still rather basic and uninspiring and still too small during peak crossings.
 

[BenMyChree]

 

I think your memory on what outside deck space was available at the stern on deck 7 on Ben my Chree as built was not what you think! The space outdoors was nearly non existent! Literally it was space  standing on the steps. Period. No real space at all. Tiny. It was so tiny it makes what outdoor deck space you have now on Manxman look like a Palace!

As for Clipper she was most definitely a step up on Havelet. All cabins now with ensuite, a lift, club class and fully stabilised with a modern decor. Plus a decent sized sky lounge bar with panoramic views.

I don't understand why you think what Sea Containers designed with Ben was anyway OK, even as a supplement to the fast ferries! She was often full to capacity, with passengers often having limited seating options. No wonder she then needed a major rebuild in 2004. And even then the Ben was never the most luxurious ferry. Still rather basic and uninspiring and still too small during peak crossings.

It wasn't on Steps. She had an Outside 'Balcony' on Deck 7. All of those 'upgrades' listed for Clipper also apply to Ben-My-Chree. 

That last sentence doesn't make much sense to me...but I know for a fact, from speaking with Hamish Ross, the scope of the Ben-My-Chree when new and how she met all expectations of her. She also had flexibility built in from the start, so that should the need arise her Accommodation could be extended. That happened in 2004, when SeaCo sold the IOMSP emphasis wasn't placed on SeaCats as much as it was by SeaCo. 

I find the Ben an incredibly comfortable Ship, well built, reliable and very well appointed. 

[nickgsy]

So on Ben my Chree, as built, deck 7 (boat deck) where main passenger facilities were, where was this balcony deck as you called it? I know for a fact when I travelled on her in Aug 1999 the doors to outside from cafe were locked. In fact no access at all to area outside under lifeboats. In 1999 I accessed outdoor decks via outside door on deck 8 and from there there was a tiny space outside and also space leading on exterior steps down to deck 7 (boat deck) but at bottom of steps blocked off. I distinctly remember passengers who wanted decent views outside had to literally stand on those steps. There was no where else! Hence my sheer amazement at the time compared to plentiful outdoor deck space on king Orry and side loaders.

In fact if you look into reports on 2004 upgrade some say there was no outdoor access. They were wrong here. It was just terrible.

As for Clipper her upgrades over the years were incremental. She just didn't need a major upgrade like Ben did. But nonetheless she has evolved fom 1999 with key changes being reconfigured club class and new premium cabin upgrades.

And the key understated thing between travelling on Clipper and Ben is this. Clipper operates on long overnight voyages compared to Ben - up to nearly 13 hours Guernsey to Portsmouth via Jersey overnight. She is usually lightly loaded passenger wise with plenty of space, peace and quiet. A different kind of experience to Ben. The Heysham route is a more mainline passenger intensive route. The ship is more likely to be packed, over used and experience poorer. One thing I can say about Ben when upgraded her outside passenger deck space was excellent. Way better than Clipper.