Rosyth To Europe Route (Zeebrugge\Dunkirk) aka Project Brave

[ropax]

Fastest route from Duisburg to Vlissingen is via Venlo, Tilburg, Rosendaal - not via Belgium.
I have self tried these motorways, was living 10 years in the area Essen/Oberhausen,
from Moers to Venlo you can drive very very fast (unlimited and no curves) and then mostly 110/115/120km/h swimming with the others always in the left lane, in evenings 130/135km/h is possible also, mostly i follow a faster dutch car in the Netherlands so long as possible.
And sure - Düsseldorf is more known with big airport, exhibition-show-area etc. - but if you just drive straight on and never turn from Venlo you come middle through the biggest cities Essen, Bochum, Dortmund etc. and further via Kassel to East-Germany also.
But to Cologne, Leverkusen, Wuppertal, Bonn etc. it is better and faster via Antwerpen and Aachen.
But in summary: From Vlissingen it is very fast to biggest cities in Belgium, Netherlands and West-Germany.

OLAU has choosen indeed a very good port with Vlissingen - but Sheerness was not good... . A shorter faster route to Ramsgate (i know, the port is too small for the 161m Olaus) or a longer route to Edingburgh would has been much better.  

If Pax is wished on a new route in future also i would recommend Vlissingen-Edingburgh (i know also there the port-problem) much more than Zeebrugge-Rosyth.

[vikingvoyager]

Fastest route from Duisburg to Vlissingen is via Venlo, Tilburg, Rosendaal - not via Belgium.

No. that depends on traffic. It varies throughout the day.

Looking now, it's via the route you suggest and has dropped to 2h49.
 

[elaine80]

If Pax is wished on a new route in future also i would recommend Vlissingen-Edingburgh (i know also there the port-problem) much more than Zeebrugge-Rosyth.

If you know that there is a problem with Edinburgh as a port, why suggest it? Whatever your opinion on the matter, ferries will never sail to Edinburgh. The nearest port to Edinburgh is Leith (Leith is not Edinburgh). It has a cruise terminal but no ferry facilities and the only way to access it is via busy city streets. Given the financial vulnerability of a ferry crossing between Scotland and Mainland Europe, there is no way that anyone, either a private company or government at any level (local, Scottish or UK) is going to invest in a ferry terminal in Edinburgh or Leith when there is an existing ferry terminal, with fantastic transport links, a few miles away at Rosyth.

Few people coming to Scotland are going to spend 19 hours as a foot passenger when they can fly in less than 2 hours, so most visitors from Europe are going to be driving. My mother-in-law has the equivalent of a static caravan near Anstruther in the East Neuk of Fife and we are regular visitors to the area. Over the summer holiday period, we see many cars and motorhomes from France, Germany, and particularly Netherlands in the area; it's less than an hour's drive from Rosyth and these vehicles must have driven many hours from ports in England.

[hhvferry]

Zeebrugge may now not be the port of choice, due to lack of berths apparently. Other mainland Europe ports being considered...

Article here

Wonder where they would consider? I had thought that some of the support for this had come from the city of Bruges? Would Ostend be suitable? 

Dunkerque is being floated as the port in question.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politics/4772469/rosyth-dunkirk-ferry/

[fiobhaniar]

Zeebrugge may now not be the port of choice, due to lack of berths apparently. Other mainland Europe ports being considered...

Article here

Wonder where they would consider? I had thought that some of the support for this had come from the city of Bruges? Would Ostend be suitable? 

Dunkerque is being floated as the port in question.

https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/politic ... irk-ferry/

That's more positive than I was expecting...

[SilverDot]

From update today Douglas Chapman (Rosyth MP) has now called his ferry campaign Project Brave (marks for originality zero) and looking to emulate Ireland's direct connections to EU. Nothing new, more an affirmation of where the campaign is.

"We have a reliable and highly professional ferry operator lined up in the shape of DFDS (Det Forenede Dampskibs-Selskab) who have shown a keen interest in making our need for a passenger and freight service from Rosyth into the EU a reality. Talks continue with Forth Ports and the receiving port on the European mainland. Difficulties raised by the UK Border Force are being ironed out with pragmatic and dynamic solutions sought on both sides.

Derek (Sloan, Ptarmigan Shipping) is well known for the success of the Brexit busting ferries from the Republic of Ireland, set up in preparation for Britain’s exit from Europe in order to avoid using the subsequently log-jammed UK land bridge. While the UK’s exports lie languishing in huge lorry queues at Dover or tied up in Brexit red tape and new customs procedures, Irish ferries sail direct into European ports delivering goods straight to market.

...

Initially we had looked at the port of Zeebrugge in Belgium for our receiving port but ran into issues around the availability of adequate berthing space and terminal requirements. Ptarmigan Shipping are in high level talks with a new option at Dunkirk which we think will strengthen the business case and quality of the service for passengers and freight operators alike. Dunkirk has all the necessary infrastructure and border control already in place.

Once these issues are finalised and we are up and running, the plan is to have three round-trip voyages per week, initially using one RoPax vessel for freight and passengers with the target to increase to two if demand supports its introduction. With easier access for Germany, France and the Netherlands, which are currently our 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest performers in providing inbound traffic to Scotland, at around 248,000 in 2022, there are also benefits in the other direction for the approximate 158,000 Scots who holiday in Belgium, France, Germany and the Netherlands."

Full article - https://bylines.scot/business/trade/new ... to-europe/

[SilverDot]

And a good picture of the ferry berth from 2008.

Rosyth Ferry Berth April 2008. Photo: John MacKenzie, CC BY-SA 2.0.

[elaine80]

Living 45 minutes drive from Rosyth, a ferry to any port in France, Belgium or the Netherlands would suit me and I'm sure that it would benefit tourism in Scotland. In the last few weeks I have seen so many Dutch cars and motorhomes in Scotland (even in the centre of my town which was built on heavy industry), as well as French, German and Belgian (plus I was in Cumbria last weekend and saw Dutch, Belgian and Italian vehicles); how many more would visit Scotland if we had a direct link?

[northy]

I can see this working for freight and accompanied freight, but tourism… I’m not so sure. If DFDS do take this on again it would be down to which ship they select surely? A lengthy voyage on Patria Seaways does not sound that great against a trip on the King or Princess Seaways followed by a relaxed saunter through Northumberland to Scotland. It’s going to take Sirena Seaways at least to make this route attractive to tourists and ai can’t see her being an economically sustainable option on the route. 

[ryanh]

I can see this working for freight and accompanied freight, but tourism… I’m not so sure. If DFDS do take this on again it would be down to which ship they select surely? A lengthy voyage on Patria Seaways does not sound that great against a trip on the King or Princess Seaways followed by a relaxed saunter through Northumberland to Scotland. It’s going to take Sirena Seaways at least to make this route attractive to tourists and ai can’t see her being an economically sustainable option on the route. 

Yes it's hard to imagine DFDS competing with their own existing service, especially as the Newcastle route already carries a lot of cars heading for Scotland from mainland Europe. But then who knows what DFDS (assuming they are genuinely interested in this) has in mind for the future. 

[vikingvoyager]

I can see this working for freight and accompanied freight, but tourism… I’m not so sure. If DFDS do take this on again it would be down to which ship they select surely? A lengthy voyage on Patria Seaways does not sound that great against a trip on the King or Princess Seaways followed by a relaxed saunter through Northumberland to Scotland. It’s going to take Sirena Seaways at least to make this route attractive to tourists and ai can’t see her being an economically sustainable option on the route. 

We are all different but I'd take Patria Seaways and a couple of hours less driving in each direction (especially if the price reflected the reduced facilities on board). 

[baypaul]

I can see this working for freight and accompanied freight, but tourism… I’m not so sure. If DFDS do take this on again it would be down to which ship they select surely? A lengthy voyage on Patria Seaways does not sound that great against a trip on the King or Princess Seaways followed by a relaxed saunter through Northumberland to Scotland. It’s going to take Sirena Seaways at least to make this route attractive to tourists and ai can’t see her being an economically sustainable option on the route. 

Dunkirk is also a long way away from Ijmuiden.  For tourists going to Belgium or the Netherlands it probably makes sense to head down to Newcastle.  For those going from Scotland to France, I suspect the direct route would win, especially considering that for most normal people the ships won't look much different on the marketing materials (once they get on board it is too late!)
The key is freight - will DFDS effectively be competing with themselves, or are the Newcastle ships pretty much full sohaving additional sailings, especially with some form of subsidy from the Scottish Government, would then make a lot of sense.

[finnalyneilishere]

Spring next year!
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23918 ... tart-date/

[fiobhaniar]

Spring next year!
https://www.thenational.scot/news/23918 ... tart-date/

Can't view due to paywall, but Rosyth's local paper says this. 

HOPES for the return of a ferry link are sailing on after a delegation from a French Port and ferry officials visited Rosyth.
Talks on Project Brave – the initiative working towards the reinstatement of a direct service from West Fife to Europe – docked in West Fife this week.The visit follows a trip to Dunkirk last month.

 
Local MP Douglas Chapman and Derek Sloan, CEO of Ptarmigan Shipping, hosted the delegation from the port of Dunkirk and ferry company DFDS at the port of Rosyth.
 
Representatives included DFDS Vice President, Kasper Moos and their Head of Customer Care in the UK, Pete Ackerman, alongside the Chief Commercial Officer, Daniel Deschodt, the Chair of the Executive Board, Maurice Georges, and Development Manager, Yvan Gomel from the Grand Port Maritime de Dunkerque.
 
They were given a tour of the port's facilities to see the maritime potential for themselves.

Also involved in the discusssions were representatives from the UK Government Border Force team, Visit Scotland, Fife Council, Forth Ports, Scottish Development International and Transport Scotland were also joined by the French Consul General based in Edinburgh, Monseiur Stephane Pailler. Mr Chapman said the project was "truly" gathering momentum.
 
"We were delighted to return the hospitality to our Dunkirk colleagues this time in Scotland after a successful visit to their port in October," he said.
 
"Starting our tour at Transport Scotland’s Headquarters at South Queensferry, we continued discussions from our recent Dunkirk trip and the potential of the new Greenport at Rosyth, before travelling to Grangemouth to view facilities and presentations from DFDS and Transport Scotland.
 
"Finally, we finished at Rosyth to discuss the role of Visit Scotland and the sustainable tourism potential, overcoming current barriers faced through border control issues and important next steps with all the relevant stakeholders."
 
Mr Sloan added: “It seems apt to host our French counterparts and DFDS at Rosyth during International Trade Week given the enormous potential for freight access to Europe direct from Scotland once we have this route up and running again.
 
"Now we are aiming for Spring 2024, the opportunity for tourists from Scotland and the wider continent to reduce their carbon footprint with travel by sea to and from mainland Europe rather than by road, rail of air will be hugely significant.
 
"The economic, environmental and connectivity benefits of Project Brave could be transformational for Scotland, and we’re delighted our French counterparts agree.”
 
The route from Rosyth was last open to freight in 2018 when it was operated by DFDS but a fire on board its ship hastened the end as the company could not find a replacement and “lost all hope” of turning around losses.
 
The last passenger carrying ferry was in 2010, eight years after sailings first began.

Article: Rosyth: Hopes for Spring launch of European ferry service | Dunfermline Press

[finnalyneilishere]

All very positive but I will believe when I see it.

[finnalyneilishere]

Anybody any idea of how long the journey would take?

[elaine80]

Anybody any idea of how long the journey would take?

The journey to Zeebrugge left Rosyth at 17.00 and arrived at 13.00 the next day, with the same timings applying for the reverse. I would imagine that they would aim for something similar to allow for turn around and cleaning, although shifting a few hours earlier would be better as a 13.00 arrival time mucked with feeding small children their lunch and restricted how far we could drive that day.

[MarkoPolo]

The journey to Zeebrugge left Rosyth at 17.00 and arrived at 13.00 the next day, with the same timings applying for the reverse. I would imagine that they would aim for something similar to allow for turn around and cleaning, although shifting a few hours earlier would be better as a 13.00 arrival time mucked with feeding small children their lunch and restricted how far we could drive that day.

But it was a Superfast ferry back then, with higher operational speed. It depends on the vessel what schedule they would aim for.
 

[elaine80]

The journey to Zeebrugge left Rosyth at 17.00 and arrived at 13.00 the next day, with the same timings applying for the reverse. I would imagine that they would aim for something similar to allow for turn around and cleaning, although shifting a few hours earlier would be better as a 13.00 arrival time mucked with feeding small children their lunch and restricted how far we could drive that day.

But it was a Superfast ferry back then, with higher operational speed. It depends on the vessel what schedule they would aim for.

DFDS had a similar schedule when they operated the route. Superfast had 2 ships on the route, operating 6 days a week, and DFDS had one ship on the 6 day a week rotation.

[fiobhaniar]

The journey to Zeebrugge left Rosyth at 17.00 and arrived at 13.00 the next day, with the same timings applying for the reverse. I would imagine that they would aim for something similar to allow for turn around and cleaning, although shifting a few hours earlier would be better as a 13.00 arrival time mucked with feeding small children their lunch and restricted how far we could drive that day.

But it was a Superfast ferry back then, with higher operational speed. It depends on the vessel what schedule they would aim for.

Superfast took 17.5 hrs and arrived at 1030 UK/1130 BE each day. DFDS went for the slower crossings. I think by the end it was 24hrs? https://web.archive.org/web/20020607085 ... tables.asp
 

[Jochem]

What do you all think? Will this new route from Dunkirk to Rosyth materialize? And will there be Passenger capacity? I doubt it will be a passenger connection, but not 100% sure of which (DFDS?) ships might be available for this route. 

Sources:
www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/23922262.rosyth-hopes-spring-launch-european-ferry-service/
ferrygogo.com/project-brave-new-ferry-rosyth-dunkirk/

[Danim]

What do you all think? Will this new route from Dunkirk to Rosyth materialize? And will there be Passenger capacity? I doubt it will be a passenger connection, but not 100% sure of which (DFDS?) ships might be available for this route. 

Sources:
www.dunfermlinepress.com/news/23922262.rosyth-hopes-spring-launch-european-ferry-service/
ferrygogo.com/project-brave-new-ferry-rosyth-dunkirk/

I can't see it happening. Maybe if Scotland got independence and rejoined the EU! And, just because representatives from DFDS or whoever visited doesn't mean it 'will' happen either. Many a port can testify to that.
But, you never know. I'd be happy to be proved wrong. 

[ryanh]

My expectation would be that DFDS will only contemplate running any kind of passenger operation if there's a subsidy. I could envisage seeing a ro-ro or basic ro-pax service perhaps, but nothing more than that. I'd be very pleased to see it happen though, in any case.  

[ropax]

I had during the Superfast-times well personally contacts with leading german staff of Superfast.
One of the biggest problems was to less passengers was interested to travel and book mini-cruises from nowhere to nowhere.

You (active users here) have always the view from the UK / Scottish side, but very important are all the cars, motorhomes and touristcoaches from European countries also, mainly Germany (85 Mio. people). And in the 6-7 winter-month (especially weekdays) the only chance to get the cabins full-booked are mini-cruise people.

With a route f.ex. Amsterdam-Edingburgh (the port nearby the new tram-station in city) it would works verv well - both cities are very attractive and known big metropoles, but not with Dunkirk / Zeebrugge - Rosyth.
These ports are unknown freight-ports in nowhere for all normal people in Europe = no reason to book a mini-cruise there.
And only with Scottish / UK people travelling with car on a ferry overnight to Europe you can not get full these ferries.
There is a general rule if you open any store or restaurant anywhere: The most important thing is the location.
And similar it is with ferry-routes also.

So a (smaller DFDS-) freighter could work on a Rosyth-route - but nothing with big pax-capacity.
Would be from midt sept. to april / may nearly empty similar as Superfast ca. 20 years ago.
And only the 30, 40, 50 daily trucks are too less for the big Superfast-ships.
The alternative would be a route AMS-EDI with 2 Cruise-Ro-Pax-ferries in a special Edingburgh-port-size similar as the Bastia ferries.
But for this is no operator to see. 

DFDS has announced that they want continue many years longer with the both very old Newcastle-ferries.
Thinkable that they want switch a part of the freight-volumes from there to the new Rosyth-route for to have more space then in Newcastle for the (from the European side) booming tourist-cars and motorhomes travelling to Scotland, North-England and partly also combined roundtrips overgoing to Ireland, most german tourist coaches offers ca. 2 weeks for all (Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland).
The trend is to visit so much as possible during the holiday - but only stay very short time at each tourist-highlight. It becomes more and more a fast tourist-life. Just stop for an Instagram-picture with the sight in background - and then fast continue to the next sight. 

[MarkoPolo]

Wouldn't it be fun if DFDS leases the Atlantic Vision from Tallink, renames her "Vision Seaways" or something and puts her on the route? It will then look like in its heydays. 
But I think Patria Seaways or Sirena Seaways would do the job.