Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Ferries serving the Jersey, Guernsey, St Malo and the UK
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northsaul
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Post by northsaul »

Is this the end of Condor, after the Governments of Guernsey and Jersey agreed to look at the process of procurement of Freight and Passenger services to the Channel Islands from when the current agreement finishes in March 2025.

I wonder what interest there will be from other ferry companies.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe ... y-67984841
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Post by khaines »

Would BF get involved as they are shareholders in Condor
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Post by northsaul »

My thoughts are that BF have burnt their bridges with Condor. They are neither wanted by the Governments or the people.  Its two years since they took part ownership and whilst they bought most likely at the high end of the market, they have suffered from the fall out of Covid.

In the islands there are many rumors about the financial position of Condor (no smoke without fire) and clearly back when they bought they could not have done it on their own, so its difficult to see them suporting Condor on their own.

Despite the recent trials of Finlandia Express, which demonstrated that a bigger vessel than the previous 135m limitation in both ports is feasible, there is still a shortage of vessels and new operator could use.  Obviously Condor own the Goodwill and the Clipper, whereas the Islanders financing is still unclear, I guess Condor holds the cards.  Certainly if they lost out, the value of the Goodwill, Clipper and Liberation would not make up what they paid for Condor in the first place.

Interesting times 
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Post by MarkoPolo »

northsaul wrote: 16 Jan 2024 09:24
I wonder what interest there will be from other ferry companies.

I bet on Molslinjen... 😁
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Post by ropax »

Really interesting - yes, i hope on Molslinjen / NordicFerryInfrastrure group - but want they expand to the UK-France region ???

They have made their "main-route" in the last ca. 25-30 years 2, 3, 4-times better, much more departures, much higher frequencies, much shorter travel-times, more space and comfort onboard, cheaper ticket-prices, best own ferry-bus-system worldwide, very young modern fast fleet, high reliability, they know also how to make a ferry full in winter.
And on all other ferry-routes, which they have taken over it was similar. Always it is today for the people faster, cheaper, more comfortable than it was in the past before with another operator.

They have great experience with traffic to Islands with fast ferries since ca. 30 years - 365 days year-around also in stormy weather - but also with "normal" ferries and first experiences with 100% electric ferries. So with Mols would to be expected that the Geurnsey/Jersey routes will be much better also - and the most important - also much cheaper than today. Would be also perfect for them, 1, 2, 3 of their older (only a few years old, double cap. of Condor-Cats) Cats they could move to Geurnsey/Jersey and order new 100% electric cats for their main-route Aarhus-Odden where they are competing with a motorway, intercity-trains, Flixbus etc. .
With electric Cats they would have again cheaper operation-costs and could press down further the ticket-prices = even more people would take Mols main-route more often than today.

Extra-bonus: They listen also to the people, the Islanders from Bornholm was not so happy with a fast ferry from 2009 as 2nd ferry (beside a new Cat) - then Mols has just ordered a brand-new Cat more and now they have 2 new Cats in Bornholm.

So best solution for all sides if Mols would overtake the complete Geurnsey/Jersey ferry-business.
They could overtake also the actually ferries and replace them then with newer modern ferries as done on other also before.
NFI has really very much money - would be no problem for them also to order new-buildings.
Maybe they would also later start there 1, 2, 3 own ferry-bus-routes for to "steal" more people from the flights.
Would be directly UKs and Frances best ferry-service then... and also much cheaper than all others, they have a "so cheap prices that the ferry is (relative) full" price-system usually. So if it is not full with 19,- per ticket they go down to 14,- or 9,- . But operating in winter with many hundred empty seats - will not happen usually with Mols. So it would be much much much better for all Islanders and all tourists. Maybe it would be cheaper with Mols including change of the ferries to travel from UK to France than with Brittany direct.

FRS could be interested also, they are much smaller than NFI but has just now got much money from DFDS.
So they could it operate also - but they use sadly another yield-management-(pricing-)system: They prefer highest prices for to get maximum profit - and they like to buy cheap used ferries also. So they would in winter only operate a very small minimum-service - and ticket-prices would be much much higher than with NFI-Mols group, so high as what some people pay for to fill the ferry in summer. So maybe with FRS it would be a little bit better than actually - but it would not be "the big step forward".

Others as f.ex. Fred Olsen - i doubt that they are interested to expand to "anywhere in Europe" now.

So my tipp for the deciders in Geurnsey/Jersey:
Book a flight "secretly" to Copenhagen and board the Mols-ferry-bus Kombardo-expressen to Aarhus, is going directly from the Airport also. Enjoy a hotel-night in Aarhus and next day back again and further up to Bornholm with these Express-bus. Than you know what is behind all the 1000 articles about the "Danish transport-/travel-revolution" and how it really works. Also here is not all 100% perfectly (f.ex. the prices in the restaurant, bar and cafe onboard are higher than on land, sundeck could be bigger as at the Balearia Cats etc.) - but nearly all things are (much) better - and cheaper - as on all other similar ferry-companies.

Option: They have also a normal modern slowly RoPax ferry from Bornholm to Köge (Copenhagen-South), there you can check how it would be onboard at a "slowly" Mols-Channel-Island-ferry. This ferry is extra wished and subsidized from the Danish state - but i am sure that otherwise they would use the Cats also alone for all freight, their big Cats has some hundred lane-meter for trucks also. So if some people in Geurnsey/Jersey "must have" slowly night-ferries also in future - then maybe Mols want state-money for this also. But running the routes as Monopoly with their Cats only - i could imagine that NFI would do this without any state-money. They are so efficiency - and these Islands are theoretic (if the ticket-prices would be cheap) very attractive for tourists and much much bigger than f.ex. Bornholm, plus Duty-Free profit and the XXXL customer-potential from London / South-England - and only flights as competitors - no problem for Mols.  
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Post by David »

The interesting thing about this 'competition' is that it is also an indirect UK- France route and uses ports that BF also use in both UK and France. I wonder if BF could bid as 'BF' and not with their partner in Condor.

The other interesting option would be DFDS.

It will be a very interesting tender.
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Post by ropax »

Puhhh - these both companies would be really very big differences in compare with Mols... .

The people in Geurnsey / Jersey have just to decide what they want.
To be in the Top-Champions League in integrated bus-ferry short-sea-travel-systems, one of the 3, 4 best route-systems in Europe (with Mols, Bornholm and maybe in future also Gotland) or just continue with a similar minimum lifeline ferry-service as the last decades ?
Or in Football-words: Do they want to be Liverpool or M.City = leading - or anywhere far behind in the table ? 

Just examples from Marinetraffic AIS speed-checks the 6 big Cats from Molslinjen / Bornholmslinjen:
Express 3 today 38,9 knots at 7:03
Express 4 today 38,5 knots at 6:03
Express 5 today 37,8 knots at 20:39
Max (ferry number 6) today 40,2 knots at 7:39
Express 1 is today not in use, but also there with 38,9 knots at 11.jan. .
Express 2 is today not in use, these both are additional in daily use ca. from april to oct. .
Turnaround-times ca. 30min - so everybody can self think a timetable for the routes to Geurnsey / Jersey... .
Only the modern RoPax Hammershus operates with 18-20 knots only, today at 01:08 19,5 knots.

So normally they operate fastest ferries in Europe, and has a lot of experience with both, Austal and Incat ferries. Other Catamarans from other operators (Fred Olsen, Naviera Armas, Swift, FSTR, Eleonor Roosevelt, Skane Jet, Mannanan, Liberation etc.) are usually more slowly operating - and some companies only in summer. And i am sure that Mols is only waiting until a 100% electric Cat (and coaches) are working well - then they will order them. Would mean again much lower fuel- and maintenance-costs and they could ads with "green".

And look at the ticket-prices, 99 DKK = 13,27 Euro and i have seen also prices for 79 DKK only - INCLUSIVE their own Express-bus.
And they operate with the bus arriving in "last minute" on the ferry so that the travelers do not loose any time - there are many buses in Europe with the name "Express-bus" - but the Kombardo-expressen from Mols is a real one Express - nothing for people who like it slowly.
Also the Catamarans, they push full service-speed that you will be pressed in the seat a little.

I have seen that there are Easyjet-flights also on the Islands. But these airline-people need first travel to the airport on the Island - which is not in downtown as the ferry-port, then check-in-time etc. . And then check-out, walking to bus / train, waiting and then a really long and expensive bus or train-trip from the Airport far away from London into the city. So the door to door time can be still a little bit longer with Expressbus on Cat - but Mols can always offer it (much) cheaper and it is much more comfortable and with much more baggage / luggage possible - without carrying a meter of suitcase. I don`t know what Mols would do, but theoretic also routes to Rennes-Nantes are thinkable, as also to the Birmingham-Wolverhampton-area (bigger than Copenhagen !) and Wales (Bristol-Newport-Cardiff-Swansea) - sure not every 2, 3, 4 hours as to London, but 1-times a day could work. For this cheap price a lot of people from England and Wales and from France would "test" the fastest ferry in UK and visit these both nice Islands also.
Actually are there 2 big problems: Bad poor very slowly ferry-connections - and very very high ticket-prices.

DFDS ?
Can not see what they want with these Island-routes, they are really a freight-logistics company, they compete with Grimaldi-Finnlines Stena, DP world (P&O Ferrymaster) etc. - and as just seen in the streaming from the investor-meeting, they are really not interested in Pax. They take a few with on some routes - but they will nothing really active do for to improve it for Pax. I fear now also that the planned Dover-Cats will be really very spartanic as on the rendering. And until now they have 0 experience with Cats - they start learning now with the 27 years old Cats from FRS, and until Cats in Dover are running takes 5, 6 years... .

Brittany Ferries ?
Can not see any improvements with them. They has highest ticket-prices, in winter very small minimum-timetables and very very empty ferries. They operate not so fast as possible, but so much fuel-saving slowly as possible. And with much more crew and port-staff than what would be needed with 100% automatisation as it Mols has.

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Post by northsaul »

ropax wrote: 16 Jan 2024 15:48 Really interesting - yes, i hope on Molslinjen / NordicFerryInfrastrure group - but want they expand to the UK-France region ???

They have made their "main-route" in the last ca. 25-30 years 2, 3, 4-times better, much more departures, much higher frequencies, much shorter travel-times, more space and comfort onboard, cheaper ticket-prices, best own ferry-bus-system worldwide, very young modern fast fleet, high reliability, they know also how to make a ferry full in winter.
And on all other ferry-routes, which they have taken over it was similar. Always it is today for the people faster, cheaper, more comfortable than it was in the past before with another operator.

They have great experience with traffic to Islands with fast ferries since ca. 30 years - 365 days year-around also in stormy weather - but also with "normal" ferries and first experiences with 100% electric ferries. So with Mols would to be expected that the Geurnsey/Jersey routes will be much better also - and the most important - also much cheaper than today. Would be also perfect for them, 1, 2, 3 of their older (only a few years old, double cap. of Condor-Cats) Cats they could move to Geurnsey/Jersey and order new 100% electric cats for their main-route Aarhus-Odden where they are competing with a motorway, intercity-trains, Flixbus etc. .
With electric Cats they would have again cheaper operation-costs and could press down further the ticket-prices = even more people would take Mols main-route more often than today.

Extra-bonus: They listen also to the people, the Islanders from Bornholm was not so happy with a fast ferry from 2009 as 2nd ferry (beside a new Cat) - then Mols has just ordered a brand-new Cat more and now they have 2 new Cats in Bornholm.

So best solution for all sides if Mols would overtake the complete Geurnsey/Jersey ferry-business.
They could overtake also the actually ferries and replace them then with newer modern ferries as done on other also before.
NFI has really very much money - would be no problem for them also to order new-buildings.
Maybe they would also later start there 1, 2, 3 own ferry-bus-routes for to "steal" more people from the flights.
Would be directly UKs and Frances best ferry-service then... and also much cheaper than all others, they have a "so cheap prices that the ferry is (relative) full" price-system usually. So if it is not full with 19,- per ticket they go down to 14,- or 9,- . But operating in winter with many hundred empty seats - will not happen usually with Mols. So it would be much much much better for all Islanders and all tourists. Maybe it would be cheaper with Mols including change of the ferries to travel from UK to France than with Brittany direct.

FRS could be interested also, they are much smaller than NFI but has just now got much money from DFDS.
So they could it operate also - but they use sadly another yield-management-(pricing-)system: They prefer highest prices for to get maximum profit - and they like to buy cheap used ferries also. So they would in winter only operate a very small minimum-service - and ticket-prices would be much much higher than with NFI-Mols group, so high as what some people pay for to fill the ferry in summer. So maybe with FRS it would be a little bit better than actually - but it would not be "the big step forward".

Others as f.ex. Fred Olsen - i doubt that they are interested to expand to "anywhere in Europe" now.

So my tipp for the deciders in Geurnsey/Jersey:
Book a flight "secretly" to Copenhagen and board the Mols-ferry-bus Kombardo-expressen to Aarhus, is going directly from the Airport also. Enjoy a hotel-night in Aarhus and next day back again and further up to Bornholm with these Express-bus. Than you know what is behind all the 1000 articles about the "Danish transport-/travel-revolution" and how it really works. Also here is not all 100% perfectly (f.ex. the prices in the restaurant, bar and cafe onboard are higher than on land, sundeck could be bigger as at the Balearia Cats etc.) - but nearly all things are (much) better - and cheaper - as on all other similar ferry-companies.

Option: They have also a normal modern slowly RoPax ferry from Bornholm to Köge (Copenhagen-South), there you can check how it would be onboard at a "slowly" Mols-Channel-Island-ferry. This ferry is extra wished and subsidized from the Danish state - but i am sure that otherwise they would use the Cats also alone for all freight, their big Cats has some hundred lane-meter for trucks also. So if some people in Geurnsey/Jersey "must have" slowly night-ferries also in future - then maybe Mols want state-money for this also. But running the routes as Monopoly with their Cats only - i could imagine that NFI would do this without any state-money. They are so efficiency - and these Islands are theoretic (if the ticket-prices would be cheap) very attractive for tourists and much much bigger than f.ex. Bornholm, plus Duty-Free profit and the XXXL customer-potential from London / South-England - and only flights as competitors - no problem for Mols.  

Ro-pax I always am interested to see what you have to say, but you have it completely wrong.  As I have told you in the past the UK market for "day trips" has long since gone.  The Dover -Calais services no longer cater for day trippers and if I was a pensioner who wanted to do this, why would I spend 3/4 hours in a coach and then 7 hours on a ferry and another 3/4 hours back home to go on a day trip to the Channel Islands, when Dover-Calais is much, much closer.

Mols line operate in reasonable sheltered waters to Bornholm, unlike the western channel.  In order to operate a HSC, they would have to seek UK MCA approval.  Even when Stena operated the HSS, the MCA consistantly refused to give them anything over a 3.5m wave height restriction and so they would not offer any new operator anything better.  That means that you will loose 30% of your winter sailings if attempting to run an HSC daily.

There are 180,000 people that live in the Channel Islands, they need the guarantees to be able to get off and on the islands and the for freight to arrive so that they can be fed.
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Post by northsaul »

David wrote: 16 Jan 2024 18:48 The interesting thing about this 'competition' is that it is also an indirect UK- France route and uses ports that BF also use in both UK and France. I wonder if BF could bid as 'BF' and not with their partner in Condor.

The other interesting option would be DFDS.

It will be a very interesting tender.

David BF has no money, it is currently a 26% stakeholder in Condor.  It has recently taken a French Gov subsidy to make up for the losses from Covid, where would they get the money???

DFDS is a possibility with potential  
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Post by Danim »

northsaul wrote: 17 Jan 2024 09:37
David wrote: 16 Jan 2024 18:48  

DFDS is a possibility with potential  

If they can take the ships! It is all very well people stating that the Finlandia Seaways did fit at the island ports, it doesn't take passengers and therfore only good enough to move freight. And the rest of the fleet are too big. Any potential would require DFDS to aquire the Condor fleet or source elsewhere. 
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Post by northsaul »

Danim wrote: 17 Jan 2024 10:10
northsaul wrote: 17 Jan 2024 09:37

DFDS is a possibility with potential  

If they can take the ships! It is all very well people stating that the Finlandia Seaways did fit at the island ports, it doesn't take passengers and therfore only good enough to move freight. And the rest of the fleet are too big. Any potential would require DFDS to aquire the Condor fleet or source elsewhere. 

Well Condor do not own the Islander, it is in a SPV jointly owned between Condor and the Guernsey government as they paid £26m of the purchase price.  I am sure if Condor lost, DFDS or whoever could purchase the Clipper and Goodwill or indeed the Governments could do and set it up like Transmarche.  There are enough HSC to find one if its needed
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Post by ropax »

 "...to ensure that we secure the best possible freight and passenger services for the Channel Islands."
(from Jersey evening post)
Sounds really very well - but i know 1000 examples from other transport-/traffic-business that then the company with the best personally contacts or any regional-based company has got the route-license... . 

The new operator could buy the actually ferries (was often made in similar case of operator-change) - so i see there no problem, they could use these ships until their own ordered new-buildings has arrived. If any ferry is not for sale the "new" could also charter any freighter/ferry until new-buildings will be there. 
So short-term 2025/26/27 Liberation + Voyager + 1 used Cat + the actually RoRo/RoPax - ships
From circa 2027 then 2 new 160m RoPax-ferries similar Hammershus (= much bigger truck-capacity than the slowly 3 ferries from today) + 2 new biggest Cats (with truck-capacity also) + Liberation + 1 used Cat. 

Thinkable future routes:
A) Geurnsey-Poole: 1 new big Cat
B) Jersey-Poole: 1 new big Cat + Liberation
C) St.Malo-Jersey-Geurnsey: 1 used Cat
RoPax A: Jersey-Poole (or Portsmouth)
RoPax B: St.Malo-Jersey-Geurnsey-Poole (or Portsmouth)

Than all will be happy that even in strongest hardest storms minimum 2 ferries are operating also.
And as said - i can`t think of many others who
1) has the money to buy "now" directly the actually Condor-fleet &
2) order "now" 4 - 5 new ships for to replace the actually fleet until 2027 &
3) who could be interested especially in ferry-business to these Islands.

Is Portsmouth really needed as 2nd port in UK - or is it also (theoretic) possible that all ferries goes to Poole ?
How much freight is today from/to St. Malo ?
How much people are travelling between the both Islands only OR would travel there if the tickets would be much cheaper ?
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Post by hhvferry »

Yes. Moving the main ro-ro ships away from Portsmouth is an absolute non starter. You've got your understanding of this the wrong way round: Poole is the second port in this arrangement.

As for buying the ships if Condor lost out they would find themselves with two very desirable conventional ships that would attract a lot of interest. The fast ferries are neither here nor there really but there is no guarantee that a new operator could easily or cheaply get their hands on Clipper or Islander (unless there are some terms of the Islander financing which means the ship has to stick around).
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Post by baypaul »

Because wild speculation is always fun... 

Who might be interested in a tender. 

Stena seems unlikely, as they don't tend to do tenders, lifeline services or fast ferries, but the Stena Vinga doesn't have a real home and would be a great partner for the Islander. Or in a true fantasy world, a pair of NewMax derived ropaxes.

DFDS could be a possibility, but they really don't have any suitable vessels, so it would be a start from scratch. 

Irish Ferries have more than enough problems already, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if they were cocky enough to give it a go! 

I can't imagine Brittany Ferries doing it alone, after twice getting burned before. 

Calmac could be a possibility, though again they have probably got enough on their plate, and don't have any suitable ships. 

I wonder about IOMSPC. Ben my Chree would obviously be very suitable, and doesn't have a current home, and Arrow would be a useful backup for both fleets. A new cat for the Isle of Man, and moving Mannanan to Poole could appeal to their home matket. It would probably be practical to move a ship from the Channel Islands to the IOM annually for TT week as well. They too seem to have issues at present, but I could see this being a good long term move, perhaps with future investment in half sisters to Manxman. 

Despite the weird suggestions from the obvious person, Mols line could work well. They are obviously in expansionist mood, and have good experience with similar routes, and their express ships would be good for the islands. They don't have any suitable conventional ferries though, and wouldn't have much time to build new, though I suspect they'd be up for the challenge.

​​​​​​​I also wonder about Destination Gotland. I could imagine they may be on the lookout for diversification, and srem very good at running offshore services, but a complete new fleet would be needed. 
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Post by northsaul »

hhvferry wrote: 17 Jan 2024 23:24 Yes. Moving the main ro-ro ships away from Portsmouth is an absolute non starter. You've got your understanding of this the wrong way round: Poole is the second port in this arrangement.

As for buying the ships if Condor lost out they would find themselves with two very desirable conventional ships that would attract a lot of interest. The fast ferries are neither here nor there really but there is no guarantee that a new operator could easily or cheaply get their hands on Clipper or Islander (unless there are some terms of the Islander financing which means the ship has to stick around).

The Islander is not owned by Condor, its owned by a Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) which in turn is owned by the Guernsey Government and Condor.  The vessel is chartered to Condor.  Guernsey Gov loaned £26m to purchase the vessel which has to be repaid over 10 years as well as a £3m capitalisation of the SPV.

The Islander would be available to any user
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Post by khaines »

Have they finally accepted Barfleur would not fit, not so long there were still those suggesting her.  I think in her case they don’t realise exactly how big she really is!  She is a small ferry, but to see her in the flesh - ok, steel - they would soon come to their senses.  She is a lot bigger than what she looks in pictures
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Post by northsaul »

khaines wrote: 18 Jan 2024 09:53 Have they finally accepted Barfleur would not fit, not so long there were still those suggesting her.  I think in her case they don’t realise exactly how big she really is!  She is a small ferry, but to see her in the flesh - ok, steel - they would soon come to their senses.  She is a lot bigger than what she looks in pictures

She is too big, I was there when the Finlandia hit the breakwater and the Barfleur is only a bit smaller.  Realistically I would say the absolute maximum size for both ports is 145 -148 m
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Post by David »

Given the amount of control that the States want, it might make more sense for the States to select and own (or lease) the ships and then make the operator use them (like Transmarche).
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Post by nickgsy »

For the record as a local boy living in Guernsey Finlandia Seaways is not a viable length ship. She got into St Peter Port, Guernsey but in kind weather conditions. Not viable in inclement weather with strong winds.  Also she scraped herself leaving the harbour.

And as for RoPaxs comments on MolsLinien and replication of their operation here, he has no idea on this one. It would not work. Simples! I doubt I'll get a direct reply to this. The Western Channel is way way more exposed and rougher than conditions around Bornholm.
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Post by ropax »

baypaul wrote: 18 Jan 2024 06:51 Because wild speculation is always fun... 

Who might be interested in a tender. 

Stena seems unlikely, as they don't tend to do tenders, lifeline services or fast ferries, but the Stena Vinga doesn't have a real home and would be a great partner for the Islander. Or in a true fantasy world, a pair of NewMax derived ropaxes.

DFDS could be a possibility, but they really don't have any suitable vessels, so it would be a start from scratch. 

Irish Ferries have more than enough problems already, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if they were cocky enough to give it a go! 

I can't imagine Brittany Ferries doing it alone, after twice getting burned before. 

Calmac could be a possibility, though again they have probably got enough on their plate, and don't have any suitable ships. 

I wonder about IOMSPC. Ben my Chree would obviously be very suitable, and doesn't have a current home, and Arrow would be a useful backup for both fleets. A new cat for the Isle of Man, and moving Mannanan to Poole could appeal to their home matket. It would probably be practical to move a ship from the Channel Islands to the IOM annually for TT week as well. They too seem to have issues at present, but I could see this being a good long term move, perhaps with future investment in half sisters to Manxman. 

Despite the weird suggestions from the obvious person, Mols line could work well. They are obviously in expansionist mood, and have good experience with similar routes, and their express ships would be good for the islands. They don't have any suitable conventional ferries though, and wouldn't have much time to build new, though I suspect they'd be up for the challenge.

I also wonder about Destination Gotland. I could imagine they may be on the lookout for diversification, and srem very good at running offshore services, but a complete new fleet would be needed. 
@baypaul  has listed some companies, but the first 6 companies - it really does not fit for the Channel Islands.
These are (partly) big logistics-freight-companies without (big) actually experience with fast ferries to (touristic) Islands, and for some of them i doubt really that they would have the money for to buy a number of new-buildings now. And state-owned companies as Calmac - this company is the biggest negative example in every University with a transportation-professor... - can only be a joke. Furthermore no one of these is known for low ticket-prices, so if there should be anything better in future, more attractive and cheaper for the Islanders and tourists - with all these companies it is NOT to awaiting. They could / would operate a limited lifeline-ferry service only with the old expensive yield- and pricing-system, timetables etc. from last century - similar as it was the last decades to Geurnsey / Jersey. But nothing would be really better - not for the Islanders and not for the tourists. Both Islands has a gigantic "sleeping" potential for much much more touristic traffic from both sides, France and UK - and a very big "sleeping" potential for much (day-)trips from Islanders to France and UK - but with these 6 named companies it would also sleeping longer time in future and nothing would be changed really.

Dest. Gotl. could be theoretic also interested, especially if they will loose really the Gotland-routes soon. They could try to sell their 4   195m long Ropax ferries and buy instead a complete new fleet with Cats and shorter Ropax for the Channel Islands.

I would ask especially all other bigger Norwegian ferry-companies also, Norled, Fjord1, Boreal, Bastö-Fosen etc. . Fjord1 is already in Canada active also and maybe one or more of them would be interested also in the Channel-Islands. Just for to get also 2 or 3 different offers from ferry-companies.
But - especially also with their own (in future 100% electric) Express-bus-system - NFI-Molslinjen stays 1st choice - if it shall be really a much better ferry-service than in the past. Was just now the media-news about new all-time Pax-records to Bornholm - and they want further get more and more customers there every year, awaiting breaking the 2 Mio. this year. Or in other words: They want also make profit - but more important in 1st place is to get so much travelers as possible. This is the biggest difference to most other ferry-companies which want so much as possible profit with economically fuel-saving operation etc. .   
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ropax
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Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Post by ropax »

Ok, i try to collect and sort some points - and sorry that`s again a long lesson, but this in not possible in 3, 4, 5 rows:

We do not need talk longer about the length, just write in the tender-papers "Ropax so long as possible to use easy in the ports with minimum XXXX lanemeters and XXX Pax-capacity and minimum 20 (f.ex.) knots service-speed".
Then the winning company will oder new-buildings in the right size etc. . And maybe with one truck-deck more or wider ship-size as today etc. . Just so big that all freight find easy enough place daily.
New-buildings takes CIRCA 2,5 - 3 years, so if the new company is decided in summer or autumn 2024, anytime in 2027 the new-buildings could arrive. And until 2027 the new ferry-company has the right to use all 3 old RoRo/RoPax ferries chartered or bought. Is no problem to write this point in the tender-papers. 
By the way: With new-buildings is the usually tender-process in all Scandinavian Countries, in 17 or 18 from 20 cases are brand-new ferries required. So this would not be a problem-point for any ferry-company from Scandinavia (Fjord1, Boreal, Norled, Dest. Gotl., Torghatten, Fosen AS (just now won a lot more routes again), Molslinjen-group etc.). 
Actually are 3 slowly ferries in use for Condor, but 2 new-buildings with much bigger truck-capacity would be more than enough. A copy from Stenas New-Max with an additional small cabin-lounge-restaurant block in style of Vinga/Straitsman could be the best solution.

Similar with the Condor Catamaran / Trimaran, the new company use this ferries in the first years plus 1 own (used) and if new Cats are arriving the Voyager leave the fleet and the Liberation is the additional ferry from spring to autumn beside the main-year-around Cats.
Both ships can be bought or chartered minimum until 2027 = so long until new own Cats are arriving, can be easy written in the tender-papers. And no Crew-panic, it can be written in the tender-papers also that all crew and staff must be taken over by the new company.
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ropax
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Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Post by ropax »

Connections to the ports:
Geurnsey-Example (similar it would be with Jersey also) for a new Cat in maximum size (450 + X cars / trucks, 1200-1600 Pax):
A) Geurnsey 6:00 - arr. 8:20 Poole - FerryExpressbus -10:35 arr. LondonVictoria OR
B) Geurnsey 6:00 - arr. 9:00 Portsmouth - FerryExpressbus - 10:45 arr. LondonVictoria
So the door-to-door time would be only a few minutes longer to London via Portsmouth - but the operation-costs would be are much much higher - and 1 round-trip less per day only possible = much less ticket-sales with the same crew-costs.
Further ferry-timetable A) 9:00 dep. Poole - 11:20 arr. Geurnsey 12:00 dep. - 14.20 arr. Poole 15:00 dep. - 17:20 arr. Geurnsey 18:00 dep. - 20:20 arr. Poole 20:50 dep. - 23:10 arr. Geurnsey
So it would be daily 3 very attractive round-trips at attractive travel-times offering day-trips for Islanders and tourists also.
But with the route to Portsmouth only 2 round-trips daily are possible without to come into unattractive night-times.

Further ferry-times B) 9:40 from Portsmouth - 12:40 arr. Geurnsey dep. 16:00 - 19:00 arr. Portsmouth 19:35 dep. - 22:35 arr. Geurnsey.    

Poole, Bournemouth and Christchurch together has 400.000 people - so this is really much - furthermore the Expressbus would make a fast stop (only off dir. London - only on dir. Islands) on request in Southampton-North nearby the motorway at Adanac Park citybus 17. 
Portsmouth has only 208.000 people = nearly the half size only ! This is always the same, if something shall be changed from old to new, there are always some people who want it let so, as it was since 1000 years before.  But then there will be never any progress.
So with Poole 400.000 people + 260.000 in Southhampton (+ suburbs) would have a DIRECT-CONNECTION to the Channel-Islands.
Just with a city-bus to the port or to the stop in Southhampton and out of the ferry-bus nearby accomodation on the Islands.
Furthermore all cities NorthWest (f.ex. Bristol, Exeter) from Poole would be in shorter distance to Poole than to Portsmouth.
The port of Portsmouth would be only an advantage for the much less people living at the Southcoast between Portsmouth and Dover. 

Competition-check:
BusTerminal 6:00 - arr. Airport Geurnsey 6:20 - Aurigny Airline 7:00 dep. Geurnsey - 7:55 arr. Gatwick - 8:55 dep. NationalExpressBus arr. 11:35 LondonVictoria = LONGER TRAVELTIME THAN WITH THE CAT-FERRY + FERRY-BUS ! AND MUCH MUCH MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE as usually Mols-prices (also counted per sea-mile) ! And 2 times uncomfortable waiting at the changes, no big baggage possible etc. .

This Flight-connection on monday f.ex. super-expensive 100,- + 10,50 ! Other days the flight alone 170,- ((Who pays this for 1 hour ???))!  Further point: Thinkable are 2 ferry-buses starting at 5:35 in GeurnseyNorth and GeurnseyWest boarding the Cat as last vehicle 2, 3 min before dep. and stopping with handshake at each bus-stop. So the door to door travel-times would be more shorter. Then in England bus A) could go non-stop to Victoria so fast as possible and bus B) with fast-stops in SouthhamptonNorth and LondonWest (nearby an underground-station, commuter-train-station or HeathrowAirport). 

So the complete door-to-door-time is deciding - and to have so much comfort and so less changes and waiting-times as possible.
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nickgsy
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Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Post by nickgsy »

RoPax....your ferry bus connection ideas are a nonsense for the local market here in Guernsey. Especially in winter.

You are also haven't addressed the elephant in the room...fast ferries are not suited for the winter conditions we get in the winter here in the Channel Islands. Much worse than Bornholm and where Mols Line operate.
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MarkoPolo
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Post by MarkoPolo »

Both Poole and Portsmouth have direct trains to London, so there is absolutely no need for a bus. 
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