Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Ferries serving the Jersey, Guernsey, St Malo and the UK
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nickgsy
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Post by nickgsy »

baypaul wrote: 19 Apr 2024 13:00
northsaul wrote: 19 Apr 2024 10:02 Well they have announced a program of 150m electric ferries by 2030, they might include CI in that
The channel islands routes are probably a bit long for electric ferries to be practical...  The electric routes are planned to be out of Dover. 

BF CEO has already stipulated in the media that electric is in the way forwatd in the fairly near future for Guernsey and Jersey. He didn't specify whether for fast or conventional ferries or both.
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Post by nickgsy »

As I suspected from DFDS. Electric InCat ferry.

https://www.bailiwickexpress.com/jsy/ne ... l-islands/
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Post by hhvferry »

Those fast craft renderings.

dfds-channelislandspr1.jpg

visualisation-of-the-72-metre-hybrid-electric-vessel.jpg
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Post by nickgsy »

Well very interesting DFDS presentation in Guernsey this afternoon. Great to see DFDS senior staff and understand more what their company sees as important. Very much pushing green credentials and how electric is the future. I asked a question on wave height limit for new electric hybrid incat and they didn't confirm a figure. More tests needed I guess. But they did emphasise electric incat initially best suited to southern route. They did stress they took reliability very seriously, using their experience on Rosslare to Dunkerque as an example of operating a ship suited to Atlantic conditions. They made a big point on this.

They were also very confident they could start by March 2025 if they won the tender. Tender should be made available to competing ferry companies very shortly btw.

I still prefer Condor /BF myself as I trust they are more likely to run a conventional passenger service. Overnight,  in both directions like now. Incidentally when leaving the DFDS  meeting, Barfleur was in St Peter Port, Guernsey harbour on berthing trials. Interesting times.
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Post by khaines »

Barf stole the thunder from the DFDS guy then..😂😂😂😂.   
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Post by nickgsy »

khaines wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:24 Barf stole the thunder from the DFDS guy then..😂😂😂😂.   

Possibly. She looked good in St Peter harbour. Massive.
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Post by hhvferry »

I suspect it's probably impossible for Barfleur to operate a reliable regular service from that port so it's hard to see what the real purpose of the diversion was.
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Post by nickgsy »

hhvferry wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:40 I suspect it's probably impossible for Barfleur to operate a reliable regular service from that port so it's hard to see what the real purpose of the diversion was.

to make a statement I think. And arrived at a time DFDS were holding their public presentation in Guernsey. I also really wanted to see Barfleur at St Peter Port but thought it more important to hear what DFDS had to say.
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Post by nickgsy »

Also someone asked an interesting question at the Guernsey briefing about whether DFDS would offer a freight logistics operation. They couldn't confirm and didn't see too informed on current logistic operations here. They did however say DFDS Logistics was an arms length operation to DFDS Ferries, and it was the later who was interested in the contract. Back in time, Condor agreed to close Condor Logistics in return for Ferryspeed not setting up a competing ro ro ferry service.  I think DFDS have more to learn. Still they seem a very professional outfit. DFDS also went to great lengths to talk about software they use to bundle all comments made on TripAdvisor, Facebook etc. to monitor customer feedback on a daily basis...this software can drill down to comments by route, weather conditions at the time and by theme. Interesting. So very keen to talk about how into customer service they are.
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Post by kittifer »

Does anybody else feel DFDS' involvement has a slight whiff of tit-for-tat? BF angling for action on DFDS turf at Dieppe, DFDS returns the favour on BF's turf in the western Channel... such is the nature of competitive enterprise I guess 🤷‍♂️

Also, interesting reader comments I came across in the Bailiwick Express (I believe it was...), again questioning motives, that all DFDS ultimately wants is a foothold in Portsmouth/Poole in order to expand further westward.

Alternatively what if, from DFDS' perspective, their ultimate aim is to stem, through throttling BF, Stena's influence in light of the E-Flexer era, or even, elsewhere, CMA-CGM...

Anyway I'm just having fun with random half-baked conspiracy theories, don't take it too seriously 🤪 Although you never really, really know... 🙃
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Post by hhvferry »

Here's an Incat press release about the DFDS project. Frankly the stated capacity of these vessels look a little on the small side for Channel Islands use.

Incat to Commence Design Study for New Electric-Hybrid Ferry in Partnership with DFDS

DFDS-70M-RENDER-SKY-1-WEB.jpg

April 24, 2024

Incat Tasmania is excited to announce a new partnership with Danish Shipping and Logistics Company DFDS to complete a design study for the construction of a cutting-edge electric-hybrid ferry.

The 72-metre ferry, which will have the option to convert to fully electric, is suited to a number of ferry routes across Europe.

Incat CEO Stephen Casey says the Tasmanian shipbuilder is ideally placed to design and build this next generation of ships for the world market.

“Since launching the design of our series produced electric ships last November there has been significant interest from many ferry operators, and we’re excited to work with DFDS on their projects,” Mr Casey said.

“The Incat 72-metre series is offered in a fully electric model that is suited to many ferry networks around the world.”

“Incat’s industry leading design and construction capabilities, and our commitment to sustainability, make us the logical choice for ferry operators who want a vessel of the highest quality whilst minimising their environmental footprint.”

“We know that battery electric or electric-hybrid propulsion coupled with lightweight aluminium on shorter sea routes will be the ideal choice to cut emissions, and it’s great to see major operators such as DFDS sharing in our goal to shape the future of decarbonisation in maritime transport.”

“Incat pioneered the development of large vehicle carrying catamarans in the 1990’s and now we’re ready to work with ferry operators around the world to showcase what the future of maritime transport looks like.”

“Incat has specialised in lightweight aluminum vessel design and construction for the past four decades. Aluminum ferries, being approximately half the weight of their steel counterparts, require less power when operated at similar speeds and deadweights. This results in significant energy savings and emissions reductions.”

Incat is based in Tasmania where the State generates 100 per cent of its energy needs from renewables, and the energy consumed in the construction of Incat vessels comes from 100 per cent renewable sources – a combination of hydro, wind and solar. Tasmania has achieved Net Zero emissions for the past 7 years in a row, making Incat the only shipyard in Australia, and part of only a handful in the world, able to produce zero-emission ships in a State that has already achieved net-zero.

Incat is world renowned for its quality shipbuilding, undertaking all its manufacturing on shore in Australia and servicing a global market. Incat was recently announced as one of Australia’s Best Managed Companies for 2023 as part of Deloitte Private’s Best Managed Companies Program.


Source: Incat to Commence Design Study for New Electric-Hybrid Ferry in Partnership with DFDS
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Post by khaines »

nickgsy wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:27
khaines wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:24 Barf stole the thunder from the DFDS guy then..😂😂😂😂.   

Possibly. She looked good in St Peter harbour. Massive.
Interesting to know what islanders thought of her, remembering back in the olden days when Liberation arrived and the “discussions” on BFE about Barf being a hopeful candidate for a service.  Remember the conversations about people saying, including me, that she is a lot bigger than she looks.  Both islands now have had a chance to see her up close and berth in their ports so wonder what the opinions are on her.  I think it is nice she has proved her worth and can actually fit, the former discussions were that she would be too big, and she seems to fit - just.  Nice people have been able to see her for themselves, remember a lot of the speculation regarding her size.
 
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Post by nickgsy »

khaines wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:24 I think it is nice she has proved her worth and can actually fit, the former discussions were that she would be too big, and she seems to fit - just.  Nice people have been able to see her for themselves, remember a lot of the speculation regarding her size.
Barfleur is indeed a great vessel. She sailed into St Peter Port without assistance of a tug yesterday but that was in near perfect weather conditions. She is still too big for regular service, especially in strong wind conditions where it would be very difficult or impossible to get her into the harbour. Brittany Ferries did hint she might be provide some cover in January. Hopefully by then we'll also know that Condor have won the contract as new one starts in April 2025. I do worry DFDS's offer may be compelling. At the meeting last night there was a lot of anti Condor sentiment. I think Condor should be given a chance.
Last edited by nickgsy on 25 Apr 2024 08:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by khaines »

Vid on the Guernsey Press website.  Also on their Facebook page.

https://guernseypress.com/news/2024/04/ ... t-a-hitch/
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Post by northsaul »

nickgsy wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:51
khaines wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:23
nickgsy wrote: 24 Apr 2024 21:27  
Barfleur is indeed a great vessel. She sailed into St Peter Port without assistance of a tug yesterday but that was in near perfect weather conditions. She is still too big for regular service, especially in strong wind conditions where it would be very difficult or impossible to get her into the harbour. Brittany Ferries did hint she might be provide some cover in January. Hopefully by then we'll also know that Condor have won the contract as new one starts in April 2025. I do worry DFDS's offer may be compelling. At the meeting last night there was a lot of anti Condor sentiment. I think Condor should be given a chance.
With respect Nick, How many chances do Condor need, unlike you I have only lived on Guernsey for 16 years, but in that time the service has steadily got worse and worse and quite frankly the berthing trial of the Barfleur was a deliberate ploy to disrupt the DFDS meeting which quite frankly failed.

Yes I am firmly in the DFDS camp and in both Jersey and Guernsey ( as was at both meetings) there was indeed much anti Condor sentiment, and if you thought Guernsey was bad you should have seen Jersey.

So why should a company who have systematically failed the Channel Island, reduced services year on year, continue to be in severe financial difficulties be seen as our future?
 
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Post by David »

DFDS would be interesting as they would then be back in Portsmouth and also have a presence in St Malo and Cherbourg !
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Post by hhvferry »

I think we should be looking at this as effectively two new operators rather than old Condor vs DFDS. With Condor now under BF's operational control they are clearly making changes and trying to break with the past whilst at the same time having the appropriate kit already in place.
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Post by nickgsy »

northsaul wrote: 25 Apr 2024 09:47
nickgsy wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:51
khaines wrote: 25 Apr 2024 07:23  
Barfleur is indeed a great vessel. She sailed into St Peter Port without assistance of a tug yesterday but that was in near perfect weather conditions. She is still too big for regular service, especially in strong wind conditions where it would be very difficult or impossible to get her into the harbour. Brittany Ferries did hint she might be provide some cover in January. Hopefully by then we'll also know that Condor have won the contract as new one starts in April 2025. I do worry DFDS's offer may be compelling. At the meeting last night there was a lot of anti Condor sentiment. I think Condor should be given a chance.
With respect Nick, How many chances do Condor need, unlike you I have only lived on Guernsey for 16 years, but in that time the service has steadily got worse and worse and quite frankly the berthing trial of the Barfleur was a deliberate ploy to disrupt the DFDS meeting which quite frankly failed.

Yes I am firmly in the DFDS camp and in both Jersey and Guernsey ( as was at both meetings) there was indeed much anti Condor sentiment, and if you thought Guernsey was bad you should have seen Jersey.

So why should a company who have systematically failed the Channel Island, reduced services year on year, continue to be in severe financial difficulties be seen as our future?

i was definitely impressed with DFDS presentation and I asked a question in the room to DFDS Vice President about wave height limit of new Incat craft. No specific answer in terms of wave height could be answered but they did give a thorough answer in terms of importance of right weather capable ships on northern route.

I just personally have more faith in Condor continuing with conventional passenger operation they have now. That despite recent timetable changes still offers overnight sailings in both directions to Portsmouth.

By the way I like DFDS a lot. Their North Sea passenger services from UK to Scandinavia were amazing. Back in the 1990s and 1990s. Travelled on these a number of times.
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Post by khaines »

I was fishing for info round the footie terminal in Poole this morning, trying to find out if the day trips were back on regarding Liberation and was told more are likely to be available by a member of staff there.  Condor desk was closed but there were Condor staff about. I was just wondering since BF have pulled the Cherbourg service and wanted to pick up some stuff anyway so asked while round there.

 The terminal is being used as a covid vaccination centre at the moment - didn’t think they did those now, you went to a GP or somewhere like Boots.
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Post by colinb »

The terminal is being used as a covid vaccination centre at the moment - didn’t think they did those now, you went to a GP or somewhere like Boots. 
Spring booster still on offer to vulnerable people and the over 75s - I've got mine tomorrow! 🤒
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Post by khaines »

colinb wrote: 25 Apr 2024 16:02
The terminal is being used as a covid vaccination centre at the moment - didn’t think they did those now, you went to a GP or somewhere like Boots. 
Spring booster still on offer to vulnerable people and the over 75s - I've got mine tomorrow! 🤒
I am on two minds whether to get a booster if I get invited, I am considered in the vulnerable category and usually get a text to book, but the last two boosters made me feel so dreadful, I am mindful to maybe skip the next one.  Although if I get an invite I’ll probably change my mind and have it, then spend the next few days wishing I hadn’t!😂
 
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Post by hhvferry »

nickgsy wrote: 26 Apr 2024 20:12 £1.5m loss for Condor.

https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2024-0 ... llion-loss
I think that is (being polite) a somewhat misleading report. Now that's not to say Condor aren't in financial difficulty, in fact it's pretty obvious they are or have been. But Condor Ferries Ltd is just one of the group companies, it's the passenger agent business. They don't own the ships, don't hold the group's debt and their income is made up solely of management fees from Guernsey-based company Condor Ltd. It wouldn't surprise me if all or a lot of their expenditure is also inter-company management charges.

The accounts of Condor Ferries Ltd are unaudited, highly abbreviated and tell us little to nothing about what's really going on.

We might get a clearer read when the consolidated accounts of Condor UK Holdings are filed. But the real story probably lives in the accounts of the company above that, Condor Holdings Ltd, also registered in Guernsey. I've no idea how easy it is to access financial information on that company, certainly not as straightforward as using the UK Companies House.
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hhvferry wrote: 27 Apr 2024 09:33 We might get a clearer read when the consolidated accounts of Condor UK Holdings are filed.
I should add, the fact that these group accounts, those of Condor UK Holdings Ltd, are overdue is a much more important flag. They were due 31st December 2023 but it looks like they applied for and got an extension to 31 March 2024. That they are still not filed tells us a lot I suspect. PWC, their auditors, have for a few years inserted a "Material Uncertainty relating to Going Concern" paragraph in their auditor's report. That is never something a business wants as it compounds matters and, amongst other things, can affect credit ratings and availability of credit insurance to suppliers (as a business you can try to keep in close touch with the credit insurers direct and provide them financial info but they are an unforgiving bunch and the audit report still counts for a lot).

Now in the past that audit report paragraph has referenced uncertainty over Covid and uncertainty about the group's debt being refinanced. Both those have gone away now although we can guess the group remains in difficulty financial health. If I had to guess the uncertainty this year other than purely financial will relate to the company's wider future. With the island ferry contracts due to expire next March I'd have thought it would be impossible to sign a clean audit report until and unless the company wins a renewal. Maybe that's what they're waiting for? I'm not sure they can wait that long though. Do we know what timescale the islands are working to to announce who will get it?
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Post by PatriaS »

hhvferry wrote: 27 Apr 2024 09:51
hhvferry wrote: 27 Apr 2024 09:33 We might get a clearer read when the consolidated accounts of Condor UK Holdings are filed.
I should add, the fact that these group accounts, those of Condor UK Holdings Ltd, are overdue is a much more important flag. They were due 31st December 2023 but it looks like they applied for and got an extension to 31 March 2024. That they are still not filed tells us a lot I suspect. PWC, their auditors, have for a few years inserted a "Material Uncertainty relating to Going Concern" paragraph in their auditor's report. That is never something a business wants as it compounds matters and, amongst other things, can affect credit ratings and availability of credit insurance to suppliers (as a business you can try to keep in close touch with the credit insurers direct and provide them financial info but they are an unforgiving bunch and the audit report still counts for a lot).

Now in the past that audit report paragraph has referenced uncertainty over Covid and uncertainty about the group's debt being refinanced. Both those have gone away now although we can guess the group remains in difficulty financial health. If I had to guess the uncertainty this year other than purely financial will relate to the company's wider future. With the island ferry contracts due to expire next March I'd have thought it would be impossible to sign a clean audit report until and unless the company wins a renewal. Maybe that's what they're waiting for? I'm not sure they can wait that long though. Do we know what timescale the islands are working to to announce who will get it?

You can really see a series of events in the coming months where BF ends up in full control of Condor.  The mood music from the Interim CEO definitely points in this direction.

Getting rid of some of the chaos of Condor in recent times will turn the tender into a straight fight between BF and DFDS.   This will really beg the question, which operator is the best fit for the need of the islands.
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