Guernsey And Jersey To Tender To Freight And Passenger Services

Ferries serving the Jersey, Guernsey, St Malo and the UK
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Jojo68
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Post by Jojo68 »

northsaul wrote: 19 Apr 2024 10:02 Well they have announced a program of 150m electric ferries by 2030, they might include CI in that
I'm waiting for a confirmation about this, but it seems the rebuilding of berth 1 in Saint-Malo is based on the size of the current ships (HSC like Voyager or Liberation with max 102 m long and 28 wide ; and Commodore Goodwill with 126 x 21 m).
It's likely a ship longer than 100 m and wider than 23 would conflict with traffic going in and out of the lock, and render the investment in the berth 1 obsolete...
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Post by SilverDot »

Condor comes second in British ferry route survey

CONDOR has been ranked second out of six domestic ferry operators in the British Isles by a consumer magazine.

The company came behind NorthLink Ferries, which runs the route from mainland Scotland to the Northern Isles (Shetland and Orkney), in this month’s Which? travel magazine.

Condor had an overall customer score of 71%.

The firm scored four stars in the following categories: customer service, ease of booking, passenger space, cleanliness and toilets. The remaining categories (facilities, food and drink, and value for money) earned them three stars.


https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2024 ... te-survey/

Promoted by JMR, pushing for the contract.



It’s @JEPnews that reveals it, @BrittanyFerries is ranked 1st 🏆and @Condor_Ferries 2nd🏅best ferry company  ! It is the recognition of a historical link built on excellence and requirement for more than 50 years between 🇬🇧 and 🇫🇷 !
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Post by hhvferry »

Somewhat surprising but this post of award or survey are always somewhat dubious.

Meanwhile it's good to see the JEP are still quoting gibberish about Condor's financial performance 😂
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Post by khaines »

Be interesting to see who he has in mind. A plural “BF ships”

https://www.islandfm.com/news/guernsey/ ... is-winter/
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Post by nickgsy »

khaines wrote: 25 May 2024 07:42 Be interesting to see who he has in mind. A 
You never know Bretagne may be visiting Guernsey too soon! If Barfleur can do it, sure she can.

0n another note on island here in Guernsey there are so many anti BF/Condor people. I wish they realised the grass may not always be greener with DFDS. And I'm still non the wiser over which conventional passenger ferries, if any, DFDS plan to use.
 
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Post by khaines »

I was wondering about Bretagne but thought her too big.  I know of the the anti Condor/BF stuff, it gets really tiring. Not taken long for those to start, so ling in the tooth, especially the Lib stuff, we disagreed on a lot of stuff at the beginning when she arrived, but certain individuals are like a broken record 8-9 years down the line, so boring.  She does mess about sometimes but much better than she used to be.  Just the same suspects - got so boring.
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Post by nickgsy »

khaines wrote: 25 May 2024 15:56 I was wondering about Bretagne but thought her too big.  
I think Breragne is a few metres shorter than Barfleur, so should get into St Peter Port.

Also with Libby, she grew on me. Like her generous outdoor deck space.
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Post by nickgsy »

More thoughts from BFs CEO on his battle to ensure Condor win the ferry contract...this Bailiwick Express news story makes interesting reading.....

https://gsy.bailiwickexpress.com/gsy/ne ... ng-condor/
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Post by Seashore »

Surely there’s a difference in the windage of Barfleur (relatively low, curved front) to the Bretagne (a big square box with an oversized funnel). In an exposed small harbour in a storm then Bretagne might prove very unwieldy.

Equally if she’s not good enough for a leisure route to France, what says the CI states deserve a 35-year old ferry rattling across.

It is possible Normandie could replace Barfleur on the Cherbourg run to allow the latter to run to the CI, but Bretagne’s time seems up.
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Post by khaines »

From what I understand Barf will only cover in the winter which would save her wasting months on end up the canal, she can make herself useful.  Someone on social media was suggesting Bretagne too - I suppose if they did consider using her it would probably give her a longer lease of life.  Barf isn’t that much younger than her.  As for age - I think both these two aren’t exactly decrepit tubs, both are well looked after and have got the prestige of being BF ships. 
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Post by northsaul »

nickgsy wrote: 25 May 2024 12:07
khaines wrote: 25 May 2024 07:42 Be interesting to see who he has in mind. A 
You never know Bretagne may be visiting Guernsey too soon! If Barfleur can do it, sure she can.

0n another note on island here in Guernsey there are so many anti BF/Condor people. I wish they realised the grass may not always be greener with DFDS. And I'm still non the wiser over which conventional passenger ferries, if any, DFDS plan to use.

Its not just on Guernsey, Jersey too.  Why shouldn't the people from the island have issue with the performance of Condor in the last 15 years.  Back in 2008, we had 3 fast ferries, Goodwill and Clipper what have we got now??  Why is it that those Condor supporters think that Condor will change?, why not allow another operator.  Yes the grass may not always be greener but unless you try you will never see.  Equally i will say on here that there is a quite a few BF supporters who believe that they can do nothing wrong.
 
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Post by northsaul »

khaines wrote: 25 May 2024 15:56 I was wondering about Bretagne but thought her too big.  I know of the the anti Condor/BF stuff, it gets really tiring. Not taken long for those to start, so ling in the tooth, especially the Lib stuff, we disagreed on a lot of stuff at the beginning when she arrived, but certain individuals are like a broken record 8-9 years down the line, so boring.  She does mess about sometimes but much better than she used to be.  Just the same suspects - got so boring.

Perhaps if you lived in The Channel Islands and you experienced the awful service Condor have given the islands certainly in the last 6/7 years, you would not find the comments tiring.  It is a forum, people like you and others are entitled to their opinions without comment from anyone.
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Post by David »

DFDS walked away from Portsmouth, however if they are serious it would be good to get some competition in the Western Channel, it is not just Jersey and Guernsey, it is Portsmouth, Poole, Cherbourg and St Malo.

Competition is good for everyone.

 
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Post by nickgsy »

northsaul wrote: 26 May 2024 20:54
nickgsy wrote: 25 May 2024 12:07  
Its not just on Guernsey, Jersey too.  Why shouldn't the people from the island have issue with the performance of Condor in the last 15 years.  
When we finally have confirmation from DFDS that the ro pax service from Portsmouth is safe and they are using vessels with at least the same amount of cabin and passenger capacity as Condor do now I'll be happier (indeed it may be Condor Islander under a new DFDS name). The fact they haven't really talked about this concerns me. For all I know their plan could be just to use ro ros from Portsmouth and just offer a pure freight service. Condor did this to us from late 1996 to late 1999 and I don't want a fast ferry only service again like we suffered for those 3 years.

And if DFDS do end up operating from Portsmouth I really hope they keep the new overnight passenger sailing option from Portsmouth. Something we've needed for years and only have just got!!! It'd be so annoying to lose it now.

And before anyone says this overnight option from Portsmouth has already been slashed in frequency as BF now have Clipper on charter for half a week they'd be a little disingenuous. It's only been cut from 4 to 3 sailings a week and now operates Fri to Sun evenings- much more sensible. The established 9am departures from Portsmouth always require a pre sailing overnight hotel stay so not always the most convenient option.
 
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Post by baypaul »

It will be very interesting to see what other bids are received.  I agree with those who feel that Condor have spent too long being considered a cash cow by financial investors, rather than run as a shipping company.  It is good that BF seem to be taking a more active approach, but it may be too little, too late - I really don't see that Barfleur is a suitable vessel to be part of a long-term plan for the route, especially in the winter.

Assuming that Condor Islander would be available to any potential bidder, ships probably aren't too much of an issue.  Manxman only took 3 years from order placement to entry into service, so a bid based on a newbuild conventional ferry wouldn't be unrealistic.  The islands could survive quite well with the Islander and a chartered freight ferry (e.g. an ex Seatruck vessel, or perhaps a charter of Ben My Chree) on the Portsmouth run until a newbuild took over. 
Large fast ferries are fairly standard, and also should be practical to charter or buy second hand, or indeed to purpose build.
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Post by nickgsy »

baypaul wrote: 27 May 2024 10:17 The islands could survive quite well with the Islander and a chartered freight ferry (e.g. an ex Seatruck vessel, or perhaps a charter of Ben My Chree) on the Portsmouth run until a newbuild took over. 

Under this scenario, with just Islander and Seatruck freight only vessel, overnight passenger departures from Portsmouth are "toast". Not quite I am hoping for. And if we have BMC vessel, quality and cabin capacity goes down significantly.

Also the whole point of getting Condor Islander was to provide added conventional pasenger capacity....even with charter of Clipper half a week to BF we have this now. We'd be back to square one. Again. On this.

And will DFDS really order a brand new conventional passenger ferry? They've shouted mighty loud about electric incats but nothing else on other ships. Also is the service speed of these electric hybrid incats significantly less than the current fast ferries? Their incats proposed for Dover to Calais had a service speed of only 26 knots.
 
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Post by baypaul »

nickgsy wrote: 27 May 2024 11:11
baypaul wrote: 27 May 2024 10:17 The islands could survive quite well with the Islander and a chartered freight ferry (e.g. an ex Seatruck vessel, or perhaps a charter of Ben My Chree) on the Portsmouth run until a newbuild took over. 
Under this scenario, with just Islander and Seatruck freight only vessel, overnight passenger departures from Portsmouth are "toast". Not quite I am hoping for. And if we have BMC vessel, quality and cabin capacity goes down significantly.

Also the whole point of getting Condor Islander was to provide added conventional pasenger capacity....even with charter of Clipper half a week to BF we have this now. We'd be back to square one. Again. On this.

And will DFDS really order a brand new conventional passenger ferry? They've shouted mighty loud about electric incats but nothing else on other ships. Also is the service speed of these electric hybrid incats significantly less than the current fast ferries? Their incats proposed for Dover to Calais had a service speed of only 26 knots.

I agree, not ideal - but a few years of being back to where we were a couple of years ago, followed by a long period of stability with decent vessels doesn't sound like a bad compromise.  It would be better if it were possible to charter a suitable ropax for the interim period (e.g. from Condor, Stena Vinga or Ben My Chree), but even if that wasn't possible it doesn't sound utterly terrible.

Whether any operator will commit to a newbuild is another question.  Often, with a long term plan and a reasonable financial backing, a newbuild makes more financial sense than a second hand vessel that isn't completely suitable - the enhanced capacity, lower consumption and lower initial maintenance costs make a big dent into the capital cost.  We shall see.
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Post by David »

I suspect that any operator will have to pay lip service to new build, the strategic objectives include environmental sustainability. Note that passenger services are essential as well. The contract appears to be for 15 years from March 2025 to February 2040.

The summary document says:-

Provision of Freight and Passenger Ferry Services in the Channel Islands

78000000 - Transportation and Storage and Mail Services
Description
Current ferry services connect the Channel Islands with each other, the United Kingdom and France through a combination of conventional and high-speed ferries carrying freight, vehicles and passengers.

As islands, for Guernsey and Jersey the provision of ferry services is critical for freight and passenger access. Ferry services therefore touch on every sector of the island’s economy and wider life. Supply chain resilience is a key priority with for example 95% of Jersey’s goods delivered by sea, which makes this project of critical importance and the routes are considered part of the island’s critical national infrastructure (“CNI”).


Key Strategic Objectives

(a) Secures strategic investment in the fleet and services commensurate with the resilience requirements on lifeline routes and changing passenger and environmental needs.
(b) Provides capacity to deliver growth in passenger volumes and to accommodate projected growth in freight volumes.
(c) Enhances service continuity, resilience and reliability of the ferry services.
(d) Increases the quality and value for money of passenger services with focus placed upon the total passenger experience.
(e) Prioritises environmental sustainability, with future fleet arrangements supporting Jersey and Guernsey’s carbon-neutral objectives and complies with MARPOL obligations.
(f) Improves efficiency and financial sustainability of the operations.
(g) Provides optimal Social Value.

Source - https://procontract.due-north.com/Adver ... 5056b64545

 
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Post by Seashore »

At the moment the assumption is that it’s Condor and DFDS as they have expressed an interest.

How feasible is it that Serco (operates Northlink) or even the commercial arm of CalMac may bid? 

Depending on how much aggrevation the islands consider it, may they simply take the whole operation in house like Isle of Man Steam Packet, or franchise it out like Northlink is to Serco.

There does not seem to be a lot of profit in it, prior to the loss last year it was some £1/2m, so a pure commercial operator may have more limited ambitions or depending if they are freed up from the private equity burden.
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Post by David »

The Dieppe to Newhaven route is an interesting example where the ships are owned by the body who tender the route. As one of the ships is owned by one of the states this could be extended which would give the states more control without actually entering the ferry business.
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Post by nickgsy »

David wrote: 27 May 2024 18:08 . As one of the ships is owned by one of the states this could be extended which would give the states more control without actually entering the ferry business.
Not quite the same. From what I understand the Condor Islander is part owned by Condor. I'm not privy to the detailed ownership arrangements as they are complex, but it is definitely very different to the Transmanche situation. And Condor are paying back a loan on approx £26m loaned to them. 
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Post by colin »

Serco don't own any ships. The Scottish government does. And as for any part of Calmac .... They have plenty on their plates and have very specific local briefs.

As above, no-one can simply take over Islander. Condor are favourites and at least the process is shaking them up?
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Post by Ollyhuk »

Do I recall correctly that this is history repeating? I’m sure in the late 90s / early 2000s there was the same criticism of Condor after the purchase of Commodore which led to a tender.

I’m a bit hazy of the circumstances, but I’m sure P&O submitted a bid that would have used Pride of Bruges, and forced Condor to take the Havelet on charter to provide back up to what was (for passengers) a high speed service only.

I might be mistaken but I’m sure we have been here before.
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Post by nickgsy »

Ollyhuk wrote: 27 May 2024 21:34 Do I recall correctly that this is history repeating? I’m sure in the late 90s / early 2000s there was the same criticism of Condor after the purchase of Commodore which led to a tender.

I’m a bit hazy of the circumstances, but I’m sure P&O submitted a bid that would have used Pride of Bruges,

I might be mistaken but I’m sure we have been here before.
Yes we have been here before. Last happened in 1998. It was Commodore who bought Holyman's 50 per cent stake in Condor- Commodore owned the other half. This time round freight as well as passenger services are included- as are south French seevices. It was just UK last time. Jersey's contract with Condor ends next year hence the contest now.
 
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Post by nickgsy »

Brittany Ferries Fans fb page says Bretagne is due in St Helier today!
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