Irish Ferries

[tumnus2010]

With the news that Blue Star 1 us leaving the fleet what are the options for Irish Ferries?

A couple of thoughts that crossed my mind, assuming they want to keep the route open...

Charter a replacement from elsewhere. Would Honfleur be too much for this route? Could they use her at Holyhead and move Epsilon down? 

Charter another boat for Dover - Calais and return Isle of Inishmore to the Irish Sea. Would there be interest in Pride of Burgundy and or whichever of Kent or Canterbury drops off the route when the Pioneer comes? 

I know nothing really about the Rosslare - Pembroke route aside from what I've read here. But with the news that Stena are looking at replacing Europe too then it could be a good opportunity to seize the unitive, or not from them. 

[12345teacher]

Did they sign a 10 year contract with pembroke dock about 2 years ago to use the port facilaties ?

[hhvferry]

With the news that Blue Star 1 us leaving the fleet what are the options for ICG?

A couple of thoughts that crossed my mind, assuming they want to keep the route open...

Charter a replacement from elsewhere. Would Honfleur be too much for this route? Could they use her at Holyhead and move Epsilon down? 

Charter another boat for Dover - Calais and return Isle of Inishmore to the Irish Sea. Would there be interest in Pride of Burgundy and or whichever of Kent or Canterbury drops off the route when the Pioneer comes? 

With the Epsilon also due to disappear from Irish Ferries' fleet they may need two ships in replacement. All assuming they don't fold their cards at Dover/buy P&O/reduce services somewhere.

As a starting point let's dust off that shortlist from when we were looking for a replacement for the Rosella. Likely inappropriate ships from that list are scrubbed out.

Star and Honfleur remain the stand out options but lots of questions about availability/appropriateness/practicalities not just for them but for all of these ships.

Volcan de T*** - any number of Armas conventional ships

Ciudad Autonomia Melilla (ex-Fortuny).

Both the above less likely to be sold if Armas are in a sale process.

Tallink's Star

Any of Tallink's chartered-out cruise ferries. But probably not quite what is being looked for on either route.

Pride of Canterbury/Kent/Burgundy

Moby Wonder/Moby Aki

Bithia/Janas

Stena Nordica

Blue Star Patmos/Blue Star Delos
Blue Star Mykonos/Blue Star Chios

Color Viking

Madeleine II

Honfleur

Barfleur or Cotentin or Normandie

Let's add:
Various Visentinis
Paglia Orba
Jean Nicoli
Girolata
Spirit of Tasmania I/II
Atlantic Vision
Superfast XI
Superfast I/II
Hellenic Spirit/Olympic Champion
Straitsman & Stena Vinga (probably too small)
Baja Star (probably too old/inappropriate)

Again timings may not work in terms of when some of these ships are available but they should all be borne in mind.

[ccs147]

did they sign a 10 year contract with pembroke dock about 2 years ago to use the port facilaties ?

They did in early 2021. Details here

https://afloat.ie/port-news/ferry-news/ ... ferry-port

[ropax]

Stena Line is offering 2 roundtrips daily ROSSLARE-FISHGUARD with STENA EUROPE all year around 2023 - often for very expensive prices in comparisation to other 3-4 hours-routes and the ferry is extremly old.

So normally it is 100% sure that IRISH FERRIES will continue the Rosslare-route with any other ferry instead for to let all Rosslare-customers to Stena.

Easy way would be any other "new used" ferry on Calais-Dover, so that the "old" Rosslare-ferry could return to this route.

Furthermore i am wondering that IRISH FERRIES in 2023 offers less departures than DFDS and Stena on the "Brexit-Bypass-route" to France. So i would expect that they are coming here with a 2nd ferry also soon, there was extremly high ticket-prices in summer 2022 (i have seen f.ex. 2240,- for a car including pax one-way in july) - so it would be not smart to let these customers to Stena, DFDS and Brittany.

I believe further in HONFLEUR to Irish Ferries, now again out of the dock in Gdynia.
Also thinkable on Calais-Dover - than also Irish Ferries could advertise with a "new ferry" better against DFDS and P&O.
People who prefer a modern ferry would have no reason anymore to choose the new Pioneer/liberte or the DFDS E-Flexer.
But for Rosslare the Honfleur would be too good and too big. 
Is not necassary to operate a new ferry against a 42-years-old one on such a small "side-route".

The biggest questions is what happens with the P&O Calais-Dover "Prides" after arrival of Pioneer and Liberte... .
If IRISH could buy 2 of them they would have 2 other old ferries free for to support the other routes.

 

[hhvferry]

Yes I think it's very unlikely that Irish Ferries would leave the southern corridor. What ship ends up there is the question. Stena will likely get the Stena Nordica on their Fishguard route at some point which despite being newer is definitely a downgrade for the passenger experience so there's a bit of an opportunity there for IF.

But adding another ship to the French routes would make it three ships IF need to find if we accept Blue Star 1 and Epsilon are indeed leaving the fleet. P&O may be desperate but surely they aren't dumb enough to sell the Prides of Kent and Canterbury to a direct rival.

[adam06]

Stena Line is offering 2 roundtrips daily ROSSLARE-FISHGUARD with STENA EUROPE all year around 2023 - often for very expensive prices in comparisation to other 3-4 hours-routes and the ferry is extremly old.

So normally it is 100% sure that IRISH FERRIES will continue the Rosslare-route with any other ferry instead for to let all Rosslare-customers to Stena.

Easy way would be any other "new used" ferry on Calais-Dover, so that the "old" Rosslare-ferry could return to this route.

Furthermore i am wondering that IRISH FERRIES in 2023 offers less departures than DFDS and Stena on the "Brexit-Bypass-route" to France. So i would expect that they are coming here with a 2nd ferry also soon, there was extremly high ticket-prices in summer 2022 (i have seen f.ex. 2240,- for a car including pax one-way in july) - so it would be not smart to let these customers to Stena, DFDS and Brittany.

I believe further in HONFLEUR to Irish Ferries, now again out of the dock in Gdynia.
Also thinkable on Calais-Dover - than also Irish Ferries could advertise with a "new ferry" better against DFDS and P&O.
People who prefer a modern ferry would have no reason anymore to choose the new Pioneer/liberte or the DFDS E-Flexer.
But for Rosslare the Honfleur would be too good and too big. 
Is not necassary to operate a new ferry against a 42-years-old one on such a small "side-route".

The biggest questions is what happens with the P&O Calais-Dover "Prides" after arrival of Pioneer and Liberte... .
If IRISH could buy 2 of them they would have 2 other old ferries free for to support the other routes.

Backing HHV here. So many things are going against Irish acquiring the two Prides mentioned - of which is the surprise factor, or lack thereof, but also where would they put these ships without extensive modifications? Mind you, we are talking about 30+ year old vessels which have existed for 20 years in their current state. I'm pretty certain that some forums were throwing about rumours that these boats were in atrocious condition mechanically (can someone back me up?), so if true, then the two Prides are sadly better off going to the breakers'.

[hhvferry]

I wonder if buying P&O in its entirety is beyond ICG financially. That at least would solve their vessel allocation problems and would also resolve the unsustainable overcapacity at Dover.

[David]

They don't need to buy it all, the freight routes could stay with P&O !

However, the over capacity was not helped by IF !

[shipbiulder101]

Stena Line is offering 2 roundtrips daily ROSSLARE-FISHGUARD with STENA EUROPE all year around 2023 - often for very expensive prices in comparisation to other 3-4 hours-routes and the ferry is extremly old.

So normally it is 100% sure that IRISH FERRIES will continue the Rosslare-route with any other ferry instead for to let all Rosslare-customers to Stena.

Easy way would be any other "new used" ferry on Calais-Dover, so that the "old" Rosslare-ferry could return to this route.

Furthermore i am wondering that IRISH FERRIES in 2023 offers less departures than DFDS and Stena on the "Brexit-Bypass-route" to France. So i would expect that they are coming here with a 2nd ferry also soon, there was extremly high ticket-prices in summer 2022 (i have seen f.ex. 2240,- for a car including pax one-way in july) - so it would be not smart to let these customers to Stena, DFDS and Brittany.

I believe further in HONFLEUR to Irish Ferries, now again out of the dock in Gdynia.
Also thinkable on Calais-Dover - than also Irish Ferries could advertise with a "new ferry" better against DFDS and P&O.
People who prefer a modern ferry would have no reason anymore to choose the new Pioneer/liberte or the DFDS E-Flexer.
But for Rosslare the Honfleur would be too good and too big. 
Is not necassary to operate a new ferry against a 42-years-old one on such a small "side-route".

The biggest questions is what happens with the P&O Calais-Dover "Prides" after arrival of Pioneer and Liberte... .
If IRISH could buy 2 of them they would have 2 other old ferries free for to support the other routes.

Backing HHV here. So many things are going against Irish acquiring the two Prides mentioned - of which is the surprise factor, or lack thereof, but also where would they put these ships without extensive modifications? Mind you, we are talking about 30+ year old vessels which have existed for 20 years in their current state. I'm pretty certain that some forums were throwing about rumours that these boats were in atrocious condition mechanically (can someone back me up?), so if true, then the two Prides are sadly better off going to the breakers'.

Any suprise if they are mechanically poor that the PoK is back in Dunkerque again for another dry dock? Though this could be a result of the fire last time causing items not to be completed.

[Danim]

It is my strong opinion that P&O are not going anywhere and never have been. I don't delve into financial records but it seems that Ferrymasters is nearly always overlooked when people are commenting on the company, and that part of it makes a large chunk of the income. They are investing in two of largest ferries to be operating on the channel. I'm sure there will be some investment by banks or holding companies in the build of these ships but ultimately they will be owned and not chartered.

With regards to the Prides, it has been widely commented on by ex crew that they are in very poor condition. Of course, this doesn't mean they are worthless or only scrap fodder, but P&O are definitely not stupid enough to be fooled into selling them to IF like DFDS did. The Burgundy wouldn't be sat idle if that were the case.

And let's also not forget that one of the reasons IF are competitive in the market in the first place is because they sacked their staff and hired cheap labour, long before P&O did! 

[ropax]

DFDS has sold a 30-years-old Calais-Dover-ferry to Irish Ferries.
So why should P&O now not doing the same ?

If the scrap-companies maybe only will pay realistic 5,- Mio. per ferry and Irish would pay 2 x 10,- Mio. ???
P&O will say "no thanks - we are happy with 10 Mio. less in 2023" ???
Can the CEOs do this ? To be happy with less money than what would be possible ?
P&O can not stop Irish Ferries at Calais-Dover. If they not sell the ferries to P&O then IrishF. can find other ferries anywhere in the next years. Normally they must have actually a lot of money in the banks - they have had ordered the very big brandnew FSG 777 in 2018 - and then later cancelled because of the problems of the FSG yard. And then bought very cheap (for only ca. 10,- Mio. per ferry) 2 used old ferries for Calais-Dover. So Irish Ferries has still circa 95% of the money which was planned for FSG 777 + new money from ticketsales in 2018/2019/2020/2021/2022.



I can not see any other buyer - 99% of all other ferry-routes are not suitable or not interested for these 32-years-old very big short-sea-ferries. Only realistic thinkable route is the Gibraltar-street where Africa-Morroco-Link use 11 years older similar-type ferries actually.
For all other routes the Prides are too big and/or too old.
And no CEO of any ferry-company will dare to try a Pride-ferry as "Duty-free-Party-Shuttle" f.ex. on Liverpool-Dublin or Portsmouth-Cherbourg with slow speed and cheapest crew for to have lowest operation-costs.

So MAYBE Africa-Morocco-Link is interested, and MAYBE also any other "chance-buyer" (f.ex. Mercyships has bought a similar short-sea-ferry some years ago) is interested also. 



But if not - P%O can only decide between to scrap and to sell to Irish Ferries... .

 

[hhvferry]

I think it's believed that DFDS didn't realise what Irish Ferries planned to use their ship for when they agreed to sell it to them.

On the Canterbury and Kent the Pride of Burgundy has lain around long enough without any buyer coming in to suggest that there isn't much of a market for this class of vessel in their current age/condition (even if the two Darwin versions are slightly better shape and configuration).

I'm not sure why specifically Africa Morocco Link keep coming up rather than any of their rivals or other southern European operators. Whilst I wouldn't be surprised if AML were looking for an upgrade and these two may be suitable their current pair are very different in scale to the ships we're talking about here. That is a route which operates without twin level loading so they'd need ramps sticking in. Not impossible but another cost for a buyer.

[tumnus2010]

If I remember correctly...I think ICG did at least have a viewing of some of the P&O boats if rumours are to be believed. That may have been the Burgundy and the Seaway in this case.

@ropax I don't think Mercy Ships will be after an ex Calais donkey now they have only recently got their hands on the magnificent new, purpose built Global Mercy. 

 

[Seaview]

Calais Seaways would normally operate on the Dublin - Holyhead route! Irish Ferries had not yet announced its arrival on Calais Dover when Calais Seaways was sold!

[hhvferry]

Calais Seaways would normally operate on the Dublin - Holyhead route! Irish Ferries had not yet announced its arrival on Calais Dover when Calais Seaways was sold!

That's what DFDS expected, or perhaps that she'd be used at Pembroke. IF were probably thinking three or four steps ahead though.

[ropax]

Thinkable that Irish Ferries will buy back the Kaitaki in 2024 for the Pembroke-route ?
A realistic price would be only circa 10, 11, 12 Mio. than.

[shipbiulder101]

Thinkable that Irish Ferries will buy back the Kaitaki in 2024 for the Pembroke-route ?
A realistic price would be only circa 10, 11, 12 Mio. than.

Interislander probably aren't going to sell any of their ships until the newbuilds arrive. Also would IF be better off to maybe consider to see how Dover-Calais route does and consider returning the Inishmore back to Pembroke and leave Dover with the Inisheer and Inisfree?

[hhvferry]

Thinkable that Irish Ferries will buy back the Kaitaki in 2024 for the Pembroke-route ?
A realistic price would be only circa 10, 11, 12 Mio. than.

Interislander probably aren't going to sell any of their ships until the newbuilds arrive. Also would IF be better off to maybe consider to see how Dover-Calais route does and consider returning the Inishmore back to Pembroke and leave Dover with the Inisheer and Inisfree?

Agree this ship is going nowhere anytime soon.
But I can't see Dover being viable going back to a two ship service. Less than three vessels make the sailings just too infrequent to be competitive.

[ropax]

The 2 Interislander newbuildings will replace the complete old fleet. 
So anytime in 2024/25 all actually Interislander-ferries will be for sale.
And Irish Ferries need minimum 2 (used) ferries more - and the Kaitaki would well fit the small Pembroke-route.
Maybe they can hold the Epsilon so long in the fleet and need only to replace Blue Star ferry this year soon.

And i am 100% sure that Irish Ferries will not leave Dover or reduce the fleet there, why should they ? If there is any overcapacity actually P&O and DFDS has the bigger problems with (much) higher operation- and capital-costs.

But the big question is which ferry will in 3, 4 month replace the chartered Blue Star ferry... - or will they really close the Pembroke route ? I can book each ferry of the fleet in summer - but the Pembroke-route is deleted. Would be little strange just before the summer high season to give up a route.

[vikingvoyager]

If there is any overcapacity actually P&O and DFDS has the bigger problems with (much) higher operation- and capital-costs.

Why do you think P&O have much higher operation costs?

Notoriously, they supposedly pay the least to their crew and they only have one more vessel on the route than IF. Yes, one of IF's ships is basically a freighter but then the Spirits and Darwins are purpose built and they have paired down on-boards dining such that they have a minimum of staff. 

[ropax]

The "much" is for capital-costs - the Dover-ships from Irish Ferries was very cheap bought, only ca. 10 Mio. per ship if i remember right - was a very good deal for Irish Ferries.

But i think that Irish has totally also less crewmembers on the Dover-route than P&O. Furthermore P&O has the costs for a "5. stand-by-ferry". But for many customers are departures with only 3 ferries enough.

Actually price-check in summer (car+driver one-way in july) shows P&O is much cheaper than Irish Ferries (42,- / 94,-).

[Seashore]

The cost of the hardware, in this case a ship, isn’t that relevant. Ships are capital expenditure and typically are amortised over say 20 years. The line needs to pay interest on the debt as well as pay the debt off like a mortgage, but all sorts of factors apply. IIRC when Irish Continental bought Pride of Bilbao from the creditors of Rederi Slite AB, it actually cost them nothing in real terms because the yield on the US$ in which P&O paid the charter fees was enough to wipe out the cost.

A company is generally only solvent if it has generally positive cash-flow. Again, there are caveats, but really a company is only viable if its day to day expenditure is consistently less than its income over a period of time, and that if it’s not that the creditors have confidence enough in the business plan to persist. That’s after servicing any debt payments, unless you can stack up more debt to pay off existing debt (that’s essentially what many Western governments do, but they have government-backed bonds, it’s not quite the same with a ship).

We also do not know the load factors, the price the loads pay and the mix of load.

Last March whilst P&O were pleading poverty, Irish Ferries said they were having a better time mostly due to Dover to Calais https://travelweekly.co.uk/news/tourism ... any-losses

The world of business is never as simple as they have the nicest, newest ships. Hasn’t helped many operators discussed variously on this forum.

[hhvferry]

The 2 Interislander newbuildings will replace the complete old fleet. 
So anytime in 2024/25 all actually Interislander-ferries will be for sale.

But the big question is which ferry will in 3, 4 month replace the chartered Blue Star ferry... - or will they really close the Pembroke route ? I can book each ferry of the fleet in summer - but the Pembroke-route is deleted. Would be little strange just before the summer high season to give up a route.

The first new Interislander vessel is not due for delivery until late 2025 so the earliest we will be seeing any of their surplus tonnage operational in northern Europe is in time for the summer of 2026. That is a long, long way away.

I think we can be moderately certain Irish Ferries won't be closing the Pembroke-Rosslare route; what ship operates it though is fascinating to speculate at the moment.

[vikingvoyager]

The "much" is for capital-costs - the Dover-ships from Irish Ferries was very cheap bought, only ca. 10 Mio. per ship if i remember right - was a very good deal for Irish Ferries.

But i think that Irish has totally also less crewmembers on the Dover-route than P&O. Furthermore P&O has the costs for a "5. stand-by-ferry". But for many customers are departures with only 3 ferries enough.

Actually price-check in summer (car+driver one-way in july) shows P&O is much cheaper than Irish Ferries (42,- / 94,-).

Capital, I agree on.

Operation - I wouldn't be surprised if P&O have the lowest cost per passenger / piece of freight they carry.  They've been at it a long time and presumably know how to make their operation as cheap as possible.