Irish Ferries

[ropax]

Ok - but with the Norbay can be only an "emergency" short-term solution, maybe for a couple of month until a better bigger ferry is available. Leading people from IF has told me since many many years that they want to replace Epsilon with a much more comfortable ferry with more cabins also. And such a ferry has nothing to do with the max. 114 Pax Norbay freighter.

If i "must" bet money on - i would put it on any (soon) available Superfast or similar fast comfortable big ferry ca. 18-25 years old.
With Atlantic Vision (i think available from jan./febr. ?) it would be the same customer-relationship as with Oscar Wilde (Tallink)... .
 

[hhvferry]

Ok - but with the Norbay can be only an "emergency" short-term solution, maybe for a couple of month until a better bigger ferry is available. Leading people from IF has told me since many many years that they want to replace Epsilon with a much more comfortable ferry with more cabins also. And such a ferry has nothing to do with the max. 114 Pax Norbay freighter.

That ship is the Oscar Wilde.

[VikingGlory]

A 6 week charter would come very close to the end of the year. Perhaps there is still some truth to the Visborg rumour aswell and she will pick up Rosslare-Pembroke in January. 

One of the available Superfasts could then be options later in the year. Atlantic Vision will not be available until the end of may. To have her deployed in the Irish Sea for the summer season would then perhaps be a bit to ambitious.

[Ollyhuk]

If i "must" bet money on - i would put it on any (soon) available Superfast or similar fast comfortable big ferry ca. 18-25 years old.
With Atlantic Vision (i think available from jan./febr. ?) it would be the same customer-relationship as with Oscar Wilde (Tallink)... .
 

Irish Ferries have already intimated that Oscar Wilde will be the second ship on Holyhead-Dublin, it is therefore logical that Epsilon’s replacement will be for Rosslare-Pembroke.

I really feel that you misunderstand that particular market especially post Brexit. The Inishmore was too big a ship 80% of the year, a Superfast would be overkill and would kill off any profits that the route may still make.

If I were to put money on a well travelled ship from another part of the world it would be the ex Inisfree once replaced in New Zealand if a short term replacement for Epsilon could be found.

[ropax]

In dec. the booking engine offers still only Ulysses on the Holyhead-route.
Dep. of the 2nd ferry are shown - but generally not possible to book.
But on the Pembroke route an unknown ferry is possible to book.
Could be a sign that Oscar Wilde will move to Holyhead if they have found a new (used) smaller ferry for Pembroke.

I know that a number of people here think that this is safe.
But i think that it is depending of which ferry will be the "new used" one now. There are still 2 options for IF:
A) If it will be a smaller ferry (f.ex. Visborg) - then Oscar Wilde will go to Holyhead.
B) But if it will be a bigger ferry (f.ex. a Superfast with nearly double number of cabins than Oscar Wilde) - then Oscar Wilde will stay in Pembroke and the Superfast takes the Epsilon timetable.

If i would bet money, i would do it on plan B).
For to be again the leading number one ferry-company to Ireland they need a big comfortable ferry with many cabins.
But Oscar Wilde has only 14 cabins more than Epsilon. So with Oscar Wilde taking the Epsilon-timetable Stena will be the number 1 in future with the big comfortable Stena Vision and 6 dep./week directly to France. This point "to be the leader" is for many ferry-companies really important - was over many years on the IF websites in biggest letters "Travel with the leading ferry-company to Ireland".

But also plan A) is thinkable:
- only as shortterm solution until a bigger comfortable ferry is available
- or longterm if they should be happy with to be in future only the number two ferry-company to Ireland.




 
 

[hhvferry]

I think it's been well established that the Oscar Wilde is far too valuable and expensive a unit to leave on the low traffic Pembroke route for much longer.

W B Yeats meanwhile is Irish Ferries' primary ship on the French routes, the Epsilon only does one round trip a week. Obsessing about that part of the Epsilon timetable rather than the Monday to Friday use to Holyhead rather misses the point.

[ryanh]

I know very little about the Pembroke-Rosslare route, but everything I have read suggests that this is a marginal route on which a ferry such as Oscar Wilde is basically a complete waste for much of the year. So it seems pretty clear to me that she will be moved to Dublin-based routes sooner rather than later. 

As others have pointed out, freight is key and so it could well be that a ship like Norbay could fit the bill out of season, maybe for a few months? Whilst I certainly wouldn't endorse it, we have to remember that the majority of people would still rather fly between the UK & Ireland, no matter how nice or luxurious the ferry. 

[VikingGlory]

I think it's been well established that the Oscar Wilde is far too valuable and expensive a unit to leave on the low traffic Pembroke route for much longer.

W B Yeats meanwhile is Irish Ferries' primary ship on the French routes, the Epsilon only does one round trip a week. Obsessing about that part of the Epsilon timetable rather than the Monday to Friday use to Holyhead rather misses the point.

Is it safe to say that a Superfast would be overkill for the Pembroke route? It’s really starting to get intriguing what vessel they will end up with long term. 

I also can’t imagine Visborg being particularly cheap to charter.

[hhvferry]

I think it's been well established that the Oscar Wilde is far too valuable and expensive a unit to leave on the low traffic Pembroke route for much longer.

W B Yeats meanwhile is Irish Ferries' primary ship on the French routes, the Epsilon only does one round trip a week. Obsessing about that part of the Epsilon timetable rather than the Monday to Friday use to Holyhead rather misses the point.

Is it safe to say that a Superfast would be overkill for the Pembroke route? It’s really starting to get intriguing what vessel they will end up with long term. 

I also can’t imagine Visborg being particularly cheap to charter.

An early one like one of the Tasmanian pair might be relatively cheap to buy. They might want to downrate the technical side like Stena have done to the two Cairnryan ones to make it economical you'd have thought but I don't know the details. But overall probably not quite right for the route without quite a bit of work.

As suggested by @Ollyhuk the original Isle Of Innisfree (1995) would probably be optimal size and capacity wise. I'm not sure it is that possible timing or is what IF want age-wise but she'd be the sort of vessel they would want.

[baypaul]

I know very little about the Pembroke-Rosslare route, but everything I have read suggests that this is a marginal route on which a ferry such as Oscar Wilde is basically a complete waste for much of the year. So it seems pretty clear to me that she will be moved to Dublin-based routes sooner rather than later. 

As others have pointed out, freight is key and so it could well be that a ship like Norbay could fit the bill out of season, maybe for a few months? Whilst I certainly wouldn't endorse it, we have to remember that the majority of people would still rather fly between the UK & Ireland, no matter how nice or luxurious the ferry. 

Norbay's berthing trials in Holyhead and Dublin would imply that she is more likely to be wintering on the central Irish Sea whilst Irish Ferries find a longer term replacement for Oscar Wilde on Pembroke-Rosslare.

[ropax]

 

I really feel that you misunderstand that particular market especially post Brexit. The Inishmore was too big a ship 80% of the year, a Superfast would be overkill and would kill off any profits that the route may still make.

If I were to put money on a well travelled ship from another part of the world it would be the ex Inisfree once replaced in New Zealand if a short term replacement for Epsilon could be found.

The old Innisfree from 1995 will not come back to IF from New Zealand. This ship is available not before 2025 and at the end of their normal lifetime then also. Why should IF especially buy then a such old "smaller" worned 30/31-years old ferry with the need of not small further invest-costs (renovation etc.) if a lot of other bigger and younger ferries are available now and in 2024 ? Why a big step backyards in size and comfort and age after the years with Blue Star 1 and Oscar Wilde ? So i am 100% sure the old Innisfree will go then maybe to Greece, Adria etc. - but not to IF.

Stena and IF has just 2 different strategies:
Stena want to operate so economically as possible, lowest fuel-costs, slowlier speed, smaller ships (PAX), smaller crews, less service onboard, lower operation costs. The "secret" future dream of Stena is a fleet of freighters as Stena Transporter and Stena New Max. And "behind the curtains" - if you speak with leading people from Stena f.ex. on transport-logistics-fair-trade in Munich every 2 years "as a friend" after 2, 3 beer they confirm you exactly this always.
 
But IF want offer usually big comfortable ferries so far as possible to their customers, partly also with higher speed.
And better offer too much capacity or too big ferries then that a ferry is too small in summer with some full-booked departures so that more late-booking customers must book another ferry-company. And here "behind the curtains" they want have always bigger and better ships than Stena - so far as it possible without to invest too much money. 

The result is f.ex. on the Irish Sea South-Channel a massive downgrade from Stena from the attractive big (and in the 90ies still modern) Stena Felicity to the small very basic 23-years old Stena Nordica in the last ca. 30 years. And maybe in 10 years will follow the again smaller (Pax) Stena Vinga and in 20 years a Stena New Max freighter.

But look to IF - they have now the best most comfortablest biggest ferry on the South Channel with Oscar Wilde - but remember the poor old ferries there from B&I Line etc. in the past... . 

And the ticket-prices and freight-rates in Irish Sea are 3 or 4-times so expensive as on other ferry-routes (f.ex. Germany-Sweden), furthermore everything onboard is duty-free, so IF will make profit with every ferry there also - but Stena maybe will make minimal more profit on the Fishguard-route.
And a temporary drop of some freight-customers now in the first post-Brexit-years will not change the generally IF-strategy to operate with big comfortable ferries.
 

[VikingGlory]

A bit surprising perhaps that Norbay doesn’t move to Rosslare-Pembroke. Although her charter seems to be very short and I can’t imagine it’s efficient to keep switching ships around either.

[hhvferry]

Stena and IF has just 2 different strategies:
Stena want to operate so economically as possible, lowest fuel-costs, slowlier speed, smaller ships (PAX), smaller crews, less service onboard, lower operation costs. The "secret" future dream of Stena is a fleet of freighters as Stena Transporter and Stena New Max. And "behind the curtains" - if you speak with leading people from Stena f.ex. on transport-logistics-fair-trade in Munich every 2 years "as a friend" after 2, 3 beer they confirm you exactly this always.
 
But IF want offer usually big comfortable ferries so far as possible to their customers, partly also with higher speed.
And better offer too much capacity or too big ferries then that a ferry is too small in summer with some full-booked departures so that more late-booking customers must book another ferry-company. And here "behind the curtains" they want have always bigger and better ships than Stena - so far as it possible without to invest too much money. 

The result is f.ex. on the Irish Sea South-Channel a massive downgrade from Stena from the attractive big (and in the 90ies still modern) Stena Felicity to the small very basic 23-years old Stena Nordica in the last ca. 30 years. And maybe in 10 years will follow the again smaller (Pax) Stena Vinga and in 20 years a Stena New Max freighter.

But look to IF - they have now the best most comfortablest biggest ferry on the South Channel with Oscar Wilde - but remember the poor old ferries there from B&I Line etc. in the past... . 
 

And yet and yet...
Stena massively upgraded the the Birkenhead-Belfast route from Visentinis to e-flexers, upgraded the Holyhead route from the smaller and less comfortable Superfast X to the superior Stena Estrid. And they placed a cruise ferry on the route to France in place of a freighter.

Meanwhile Irish Ferries replaced the Oscar Wilde (1) with the W. B. Yeats, a ship I'm sure you would absolutely loathe.

I'm sorry but what you are saying about Stena Line's Irish Sea operations taken as a whole vs Irish Ferries simply doesn't reflect reality.

[ropax]

Yes, as said here - Dest. Gotl. wants very high charter-rates, so i do not believe in any longterm-charter from IF for Visborg.
Can imagine also that they will go with Norbay through the winter as freighter on the Holyhead-route - until a new used much bigger ferry is available.

What about this thinkable solution:
- With Norbay operating CIRCA until april.
- Then charter of Romantika only for the summer until sept. 2024
- Romantika takes the WB Yeats timetable and WB Yeats takes the Epsilon-timetable
Then this would be the results:
- IF would be again the leading number 1 ferry-company to Ireland
- biggest, best, most modern ferries on all 3 routes to Ireland
(Romantika better bigger than Vision, WB Yeats better bigger than Horizon and Estrid (in my opinion), Ulysses better bigger than Adventurer, Oscar Wilde better bigger than Nordica)
- more cabins per week offered also than Stena on the direct-route to France
- maybe a very low charter-rate in winter for the old small Norbay
- and the higher charter-rate for Romantika only in summer to pay

So it sounds surprising - but why not ?
IF has the contact to Tallink already, Tallink has no customer for Romantika.
Better someone pays for the summer than nobody pays money.
Furthermore a "follow-business" is thinkable: 
When the Atlantic Vision Superfast is available this ferry will operate in future winters from 2024/25, taking over what now Norbay is doing. WB Yeats could then start 1 x weekly to Spain (Gijon wants a ferry route also) f.ex. .
 

[hhvferry]

Yes, as said here - Dest. Gotl. wants very high charter-rates, so i do not believe in any longterm-charter from IF for Visborg.
Can imagine also that they will go with Norbay through the winter as freighter on the Holyhead-route - until a new used much bigger ferry is available.

What about this thinkable solution:
- With Norbay operating CIRCA until april.
- Then charter of Romantika only for the summer until sept. 2024
- Romantika takes the WB Yeats timetable and WB Yeats takes the Epsilon-timetable

<snipped>

So it sounds surprising - but why not ?

Because replacing the W. B. Yeats with the Romantika on the French route would be utterly nonsensical.

Even if we play your game of "freight isn't important" the Yeats, if fully loaded only with cars, can take 1,200+ of them.
The Romantika can take 300.

That's a lot of tourists you are planning on leaving behind.

[munstertillburgundy]

...
As suggested by @Ollyhuk the original Isle Of Innisfree (1995) would probably be optimal size and capacity wise. I'm not sure it is that possible timing or is what IF want age-wise but she'd be the sort of vessel they would want.

Ironically she was built next in line after Norbay in the same yard and there is a limited number of similarities between both ships.
Most notable differences: The Kaitaki is 10-15 longer and has much bigger passenger decks (seating / catering / accomadation).
This is also the reason why the Norbay could only be a very last resort for a very limited time for the Rosslare-Pembroke route: the significance of freight being undisputed, but you need passenger capacities for this route or lose regular customers to Stena. Especially in the week before and after Christmas, Ireland still has strong family-ties with relatives working and living abroad.

But as much as we enthusiasts would love to see it, there is no economical sense for ferry companies in bringing back past vessels. Kaitaki is close to 30 years old and was in the press with technical problems a bit often lately. Besides: the Saint Patrick II would also be on the market and immediately available [irony].

Whoever states a Kaitaki-sized vessel would be a step backwards from Blue Star 1 or Oscar Wilde (current): on both vessels significant areas were/are closed of (shut down) for this route. 
Rosslare-Pembroke/Fishguard is the only route remaining, that stands before becoming pure "Dublin Ferries". Both operators (or their successors) have probably received subventions when this was still possible for maintaining the route and would now lose face pulling out. The biggest share of all freight transports to and from Ireland are needed in and around Dublin and even for tourism only few areas remain, to which Rosslare is much better positioned than Dublin.

So Stena and Irish Ferries are sticking in here as long as they don't amount losses on these routes. 
We won't see anything significantly bigger mid-term from Irish Ferries to Pembroke than Stena is offering with the Nordica.

I've read a lot of things about Irish Ferries (and Stena) in this and other threads that are fantasy and need to be corrected. But I want to avoid endless texting to several subjects. For now I'll try if 2-3 beers behind curtains can enlighten me also.

But one last question: Everyone seems to take for granted Oscar Wilde will finally stay on the Dublin-Holyhead service?
To my memory Irish Ferries only published she would not stay on Rosslare-Pembroke forever.

 

[CH1]

Yes, as said here - Dest. Gotl. wants very high charter-rates, so i do not believe in any longterm-charter from IF for Visborg.
Can imagine also that they will go with Norbay through the winter as freighter on the Holyhead-route - until a new used much bigger ferry is available.

What about this thinkable solution:
- With Norbay operating CIRCA until april.
- Then charter of Romantika only for the summer until sept. 2024
- Romantika takes the WB Yeats timetable and WB Yeats takes the Epsilon-timetable
Then this would be the results:
- IF would be again the leading number 1 ferry-company to Ireland
- biggest, best, most modern ferries on all 3 routes to Ireland
(Romantika better bigger than Vision, WB Yeats better bigger than Horizon and Estrid (in my opinion), Ulysses better bigger than Adventurer, Oscar Wilde better bigger than Nordica)
- more cabins per week offered also than Stena on the direct-route to France
- maybe a very low charter-rate in winter for the old small Norbay
- and the higher charter-rate for Romantika only in summer to pay

Absolute disaster in sight to charter the Romantika. It is unlikely.

W.B.YEATS is the perfect main Cherbourg-Dublin vessel, as Irish Ferries absolutely needs freight capacity on this route, even during the summer, as well as cabin capacity. She has both of it.
Which Romantika has not. 
Irish Ferries needs to find a ferry for the Pembroke run, but Oscar Wilde would be a nice second vessel for Cherbourg-Dublin, her cabin capacity will not be an issue at all, as she would do only one weekly crossing to France. 

And about your point of Stena operating freighters in a few years-time, the so-called "secret dream" admitted after "2,3 beers" is not what is happening. If true, Stena would never have brought Stena Vision to the Irish Sea market. 


At the end of the day, I think Irish Ferries will order new ferries, unless they find available and suitable ferries. 

[vikingvoyager]

But one last question: Everyone seems to take for granted Oscar Wilde will finally stay on the Dublin-Holyhead service?
To my memory Irish Ferries only published she would not stay on Rosslare-Pembroke forever.

To my mind, the OW is not a good particularly good fit anywhere for IF. To big generally (especially in passenger space) for Pembroke and not really big enough in terms of freight to take over from Epsilon. 

She's only chartered, I believe. Will she stay long with them? Would they take another Visentini if they could get one?

[EuroFerries]

What would be ideal for Pembroke-Rosslare? 2000 lanemeters? 800 Pax? If you have a certain amount of Trailers and Lorries per departure + saison cars, caravans and busses?

[VikingGlory]

But one last question: Everyone seems to take for granted Oscar Wilde will finally stay on the Dublin-Holyhead service?
To my memory Irish Ferries only published she would not stay on Rosslare-Pembroke forever.

To my mind, the OW is not a good particularly good fit anywhere for IF. To big generally (especially in passenger space) for Pembroke and not really big enough in terms of freight to take over from Epsilon. 

She's only chartered, I believe. Will she stay long with them? Would they take another Visentini if they could get one?

Yes she is chartered quite long term. January 2025 with a 2 + 2 year extension option and an option to buy. 
I’m not familiar enough to tell you how well she fits Irish Ferries but from the way the charter contract is made I think they have every intention of buying her.

The lanemeter difference between her and Epsilon isn’t that huge either. It seems like Visentinis are often available so if they’d have preferred that over OW I’m sure they’d have done it.

[hhvferry]

P&O Informs that the charter is for 6 months with extension options. So the 6 weeks was not true.
This makes more sense and probably means a replacement for Epsilon until they can find something more definitive.

Thank you,
IF's fleet planning seems to have caused them some real headaches and this is hardly an ideal solution. I wonder if they'll give the Dublin Swift some more winter outings than usual to offset the lower passenger capacity. Whilst it is the low season there are still some busier parts to it (to be fair the Epsilon herself does not have a huge passenger cap.).

Or, somewhat more contentious, they could just flip Norbay and Oscar Wilde - but that probably is a bit too far down in capacity and quality for the Pembroke route.

How about... they use the six months to trial the ship and if they are satisfied with her mechanically they look into buying her and bolting on a larger accommodation block. She's somewhat old for that sort of work but they could create a perfect counterpart to the Stena Nordica at Rosslare.
(I can feel @ropax's head exploding at the very suggestion 😀)

[Nordicaropax]

Oscar is overcapacity for Pembroke,was on her 2 weeks ago and while the “Sea pub” was busy the rest of the ship felt empty. A ship similar in size to Nordica with more passenger capacity might be the best option. The Inishfree and Inisheer in Dover are the only ships that come close. 

IF need to start being a little more long term strategic regarding fleet planning,even more so on the French run if Stena decide to bring in new ships for Cherbourg eventually. 

IF had their chance with Superfasts and didn’t take it,and Romantika anchoring off Dublin in 2021 is as likely as she will ever get to Ireland. Her freight capacity is minuscule for Ireland-France. If Norbay is a 6 month charter something tells me they’ve something in mind for Pembroke,it’s just not available yet. 

[nickhall]

If Norbay is a 6 month charter something tells me they’ve something in mind for Pembroke,it’s just not available yet. 

You could well be right. My money is on Silja Europa with new engines fitted to enable her to steam at 35 knots. This would give time for a daily round trip to Pembroke & Liverpool with a Saturday sailing to Lisbon thrown in for good measure.
Comfortable with plenty of cabins and will have Stena charging for an Irish Sea exit, what’s not to like. 🤔


Mods, please move/delete if overly sarcastic. 😂
 

[ropax]

The have now the Norbay until 30.april (+ options).

Then the Atlantic Vision could be available - or the Romantika... .
Both offered from the same seller as the Oscar Wilde... .

It is possible to built in relative cheap and easy many hanging decks for much more cars.
Could be done now in winter f.ex. .
So if wished the Romantika could take also circa 700 cars from next spring then.

And there was a missunderstand:
My proposal is not to replace the WB Yeats with Romantika - but to take her especially against Stena Vision as comfortable cruise-"many cabins"-ferry. And another ferry (f.ex. WB Yeats) can continue to France as the "mainly for freight ferry" - against Stena Horizon.
After Covid and Brexit especially all these direct-ferries France-Ireland are booming in summer every year more and more, was this year far in front of all other ferry-routes in Europe the travel-corridor with the most full-booked departures (Cabins ! Not freight !).

So only with Romantika (727 cabins) IF could overtrump Stena Vision with 485 cabins. Just to remember: 1 cabin = normally 1 car.
So 27 cabins for foot-pax, backpackers, bicycle-tourists, motorbikers etc. and the 700 other cabins for 700 cars.
Would be a gigantic profit daily with the very very very high ticket-prices on the Ireland-France route.
And IF could again use the former marketing slogan "number 1 ferry operator to Ireland"  and new "biggest most luxury ferry to Ireland". 

[baypaul]

The have now the Norbay until 30.april (+ options).

Then the Atlantic Vision could be available - or the Romantika... .
Both offered from the same seller as the Oscar Wilde... .

It is possible to built in relative cheap and easy many hanging decks for much more cars.
Could be done now in winter f.ex. .
So if wished the Romantika could take also circa 700 cars from next spring then.

And there was a missunderstand:
My proposal is not to replace the WB Yeats with Romantika - but to take her especially against Stena Vision as comfortable cruise-&quot;many cabins&quot;-ferry. And another ferry (f.ex. WB Yeats) can continue to France as the &quot;mainly for freight ferry&quot; - against Stena Horizon.
After Covid and Brexit especially all these direct-ferries France-Ireland are booming in summer every year more and more, was this year far in front of all other ferry-routes in Europe the travel-corridor with the most full-booked departures (Cabins ! Not freight !).

So only with Romantika (727 cabins) IF could overtrump Stena Vision with 485 cabins. Just to remember: 1 cabin = normally 1 car.
So 27 cabins for foot-pax, backpackers, bicycle-tourists, motorbikers etc. and the 700 other cabins for 700 cars.
Would be a gigantic profit daily with the very very very high ticket-prices on the Ireland-France route.
And IF could again use the former marketing slogan &quot;number 1 ferry operator to Ireland&quot;  and new &quot;biggest most luxury ferry to Ireland&quot;. 

Romantika is utterly unsuitable for any route to Ireland, as everyone has explained to you. Two freight decks are absolutely essential for all routes. IF don't need a ferry for Ireland - France. They need a ferry for Pembroke - Rosslare. Oscar Wilde will do the job nicely for Holyhead - Dublin (+ 1 round trip to Cherbourg)